Brexit deal nigh or nyet? - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.0&return_msg=42264.164"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.141">141–150</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.151">151–160</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.161">161–170</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.171">171–180</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.191">191–200</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=42264.164">Brexit deal nigh or nyet?</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="42264_164_200_10"> <a name="a42264_164"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_164"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">20 Jun 2019 20:05</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">164 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164">42264.164</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Picking what solace I can from the wreckage, I do think that all this shit does bring us nearer to PR. FPTP was being propped up by the Coke vs. Pepsi two party cartel; but it will look less attractive to them as they drop down the rankings. One clear outcome of the recent elections is that 21st century politics can't be expressed through a 19th century electoral process.<br /><br /> If we're not going to descend further down the pan of irrational polarisation, we need an electoral system which ensures that every vote - no matter how much I object to it - influences the complexion of government. My vote (Green) will get on other people's tits too.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.164&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.164"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_165"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_165"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">20 Jun 2019 23:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 21 Jun 2019 12:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">165 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.165">42264.165</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_164" target="_self">42264.164</a></div> <div class="message_body"> One must keep in mind that Israel has proportional representation, with regard to the practicality of the outcome.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.165&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.165"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_166"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_166"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">21 Jun 2019 11:13</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 21 Jun 2019 12:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">166 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.166">42264.166</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_164" target="_self">42264.164</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I know from your twitter that you love this Coke/Pepsi analogy, but surely it only applies to them attempting to fudge the brexit thing without alienating large swathes of their support one way or another. As big as that is, there's a lot more life and Labour at the moment seem pretty much opposite to the Tories on austerity, tax, social care, housing, the NHS, transport, environment, and well, everything.<br /><br /> Anyway, I can respect a Green vote (and will go back to them if/when the centrist types finally manage to sabotage Labour enough to get it back to the middle of the road shit we tired of years ago - then it truly is something where your analogy works), there's principles in it. <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 21 Jun 2019 11:19 by MILKO</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.166&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.166"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_167"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_167"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">21 Jun 2019 12:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 21 Jun 2019 13:27"></span></span> <span class="message_count">167 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.167">42264.167</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_166" target="_self">42264.166</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I only use the Coke Vs. Pepsi analogy in the context of FPTP voting, because it's in their mutual interest to maintain a system that supports the myth of a binary choice. The political calculation is that it's better to have a 50% chance of all of the pie than the virtual guarantee of around a third of it. A proportional system is clearly more democratic, enfranchising virtually every voter, but the Tories and Labour don't support it because it's not in their parties' interests.<br /><br /> To Smiffy's point, yes, Israel has PR; but so do 89 other countries, including some of the most politically stable - staid, even.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.167&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.167"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_168"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_168"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">21 Jun 2019 13:29</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 23 Jun 2019 16:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">168 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.168">42264.168</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_167" target="_self">42264.167</a></div> <div class="message_body"> fair enough, that makes sense. I never did like fizzy drinks much.<br /><br /> Maybe we can get stuck enough into hung parliaments and minority governments to make it happen, although i dread to think the trouble getting there will cause.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.168&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.168"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_169"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_169"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">21 Jun 2019 13:37</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 23 Jun 2019 16:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">169 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.169">42264.169</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_167" target="_self">42264.167</a></div> <div class="message_body"> OK, I didn't know that, not having looked into it to any degree (obviously).<br /><br /> 'more democratic' sounds like a good and desirable thing; in the age of facebook and twitter it is proving problematic.<br /><br /> I don't think a particular electoral system or political structure can in and of itself ensure a good outcome, if the participants can't even broadly agree on the definition of what that might look like.<br /><br /> I do think some experimentation is warranted in view of current systemic failures. A lot of what we're seeing is a rejection of the status quo because so many have been hard done by it, they are willing to entertain nuclear options (Trump, Brexit et al).<br /><br /> To me, the only way to save the day (and the planet), is swift and decisive wealth redistribution. Fuck 'slavery reparations', we need *poverty* reparations, on a global scale.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.169&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.169"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_170"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_170"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">21 Jun 2019 21:47</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 22 Jun 2019 10:29"></span></span> <span class="message_count">170 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.170">42264.170</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_169" target="_self">42264.169</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Democracy does need an appropriately educated populace to be effective. <p>Capitalism works better when the peons can be conned and divided.</p></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.170&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.170"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_171"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_171"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2019 13:24</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">171 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.171">42264.171</a></div> <div class="message_body"> AsboJo got the police called to his girlfriend's flat, over a sofa-ruining drunken altercation last night<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 22 Jun 2019 14:53 by DSMITHHFX</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.171&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.171"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_172"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_172"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">28 Aug 2019 13:21</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">172 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.172">42264.172</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_171" target="_self">42264.171</a></div> <div class="message_body"> New series <em>Rise of the Nazis</em> on the BBC starting 2 September. Apparently Germany was a Liberal Democracy and yet 4 years later was in the hands of a dictator with a government of murderers. Seems that it was as much about ruthless personal ambition and a desire to hold onto power by more moderate politicians as it was about extreme ideology. Just saying.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.172&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.172"> <span class="rating">+4/4</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_173"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_173"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">28 Aug 2019 13:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Aug 2019 13:46"></span></span> <span class="message_count">173 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.173">42264.173</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164#a42264_172" target="_self">42264.172</a></div> <div class="message_body"> What's happening is scary.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.173&return_msg=42264.164" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.173"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="42264.174" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>