Brexit deal nigh or nyet? - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.0&return_msg=42264.156"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.131">131–140</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.141">141–150</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.151">151–160</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.161">161–170</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.191">191–200</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=42264.156">Brexit deal nigh or nyet?</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="42264_156_200_10"> <a name="a42264_156"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_156"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">19 Jun 2019 09:38</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 19 Jun 2019 19:30"></span></span> <span class="message_count">156 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.156">42264.156</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.155">42264.155</a></div> <div class="message_body"> What is nuts (and yet somehow not surprising) about all this is the apparent liking for Stewart among centrist remainer types. I mean, let's face it nothing he's saying here is likely to be true and he'll go and row back any promises about improving society, he's a Tory and that's a given. But even that aside, he's pretty much going "I will get May's Europe deal through" which everybody on both sides of the debate hated enough to see fail numerous times. Why is anybody even slightly interested? <br /><br /> I do hope the country isn't too far ruined by the time these clowns have finished fucking it up. And I hope people don't start falling for this Lib Dem bullshit because jesus christ they'd jump back in with the conservatives at the drop of a hat if it got them into coalition again, brexit or not. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.156&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.156"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_157"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_157"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">19 Jun 2019 11:16</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 19 Jun 2019 19:30"></span></span> <span class="message_count">157 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.157">42264.157</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.155">42264.155</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I agree on a lot of that. Came across the best on the C4 debate, though not as good on the BBC last night.<br /> <br /> He seemed to be the only one using even basic logic during the debate. Can't reduce taxes because that will reduce spending. Tories want reduced taxes, it's that simple.<br /> <br /> But kinda as Milko has said, his Brexit offer is the current WA. That's been rejected by most groups of people across the Brexit spectrum. Seems a pointless offering of what we already have. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.157&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.157"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_158"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_158"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">19 Jun 2019 17:10</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Jun 2019 11:10"></span></span> <span class="message_count">158 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.158">42264.158</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.156#a42264_156" target="_self">42264.156</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Just watching the Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns on Johnson vs Stewart. Apparently Stewart has done a 'great job' demonstrating the wide base of the Tory Party (Huh???) but Boris is the man who can get a deal with the EU and bring the country together. He was asked 'and Boris can bring the country together?' to which he replied 'Oh yes, easily.'<br /><br /> When Boris fans in the parliamentary party are so clearly living in isolation from the real world, then it goes some way to explaining some of the things they say and seem to believe.<br /><br /> Just seen that Stewart is out of the race. He will have to DOB, DOB, DOB somewhere else and his young supporters need no longer fear National Service.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.158&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.158"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_159"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_159"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">19 Jun 2019 18:08</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 19 Jun 2019 18:21"></span></span> <span class="message_count">159 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.159">42264.159</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.156#a42264_158" target="_self">42264.158</a></div> <div class="message_body"> "the man who can get a no deal with the EU"<br /><br /> FTFY</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.159&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.159"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_160"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_160"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">19 Jun 2019 18:50</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 19 Jun 2019 19:09"></span></span> <span class="message_count">160 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.160">42264.160</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.156#a42264_159" target="_self">42264.159</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Exactly. The EU agreed a deal with the British government. This involved the EU negotiating team separately negotiating/agreeing the terms of the deal to be offered with 27 individual national governments. It was a tortuous process extending over 2.5 years and was characterised by the British governments combination of "red-lines" (No Common Market, No Free Movement, No Contribution to the EU Budget) with demands for as many EU goodies as possible - Oh, and not undermining the Good Friday Agreement with a physical, tariff barrier between N & S. Not surprisingly, the EU says "That's it. No more negotiating."<br /><br /> It follows that the strategy of ALL the candidates who want to leave the EU but with a deal and not Theresa May's deal (i.e. all the candidates) depends ENTIRELY on the EU being bluffing. <br /><br /> The negotiation that will take place when the EU admits that it's bluffing consists of various MAGICAL replacements to the "back stop" agreement - the propoposal to remain temporarily within the Customs Union while a long term solution to the N/S Irish border is worked out. The plan popular with the Tory ERG is MAGICAL TECHNOLOGY. The ERG have been assured by experts (IT salesmen and CEOs) that it is quite possible to solve everything with existing technology really, really quickly. This solution appears to have been talked into reality over the last few months so that it is now a given in Tory discussions.<br /><br /> If it wasn't all so serious with such consequences for real lives I'd say 'fuck the lot of them and lets just screw the whole nation up with a no-deal exit'. After all, that's exactly what the majority of Tory Party members with the final say on the candidates actually believe according to recent polls.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.160&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.160"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_161"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_161"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">19 Jun 2019 20:34</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Jun 2019 11:10"></span></span> <span class="message_count">161 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.161">42264.161</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.156#a42264_156" target="_self">42264.156</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Wouldn't the potential benefit of Lib Dems be in taking votes away from the Conservatives and Labour, moving away from a two-party system, and towards the possibility of PR? <p>Tim Farron made it clear the Lib Dems wouldn't coalesce with either of the other two parties in 2017. It's still another five weeks before we find out if they pick Ed Davey or Jo Swinson - a brief look suggests both of them suck, but I'll sit myself on the fence about whether either is opportunist enough to bury the party by jumping back into bed with the Tories.</p></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.161&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.161"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_162"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_162"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">20 Jun 2019 11:17</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Jun 2019 19:45"></span></span> <span class="message_count">162 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.162">42264.162</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.156#a42264_161" target="_self">42264.161</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I've seen nothing to disabuse me of the opinion that the LDs are weather-vanes and will say whatever seems most politically expedient in any given moment. Chuka Umunna seems entirely suited to them in that regard, in that both him and Cable were on the fairly recent record about respecting the referendum result and hardening up on immigration at one point, but now of course it's all different and always has been. Haha, Chuka's also on record about how he could never join the LDs after their coalition history and broken promises. Lolz all round!<br /><br /> The LDs also managed to fuck up getting even AV, I don't have any hope they'd get anywhere with PR at all. If they surprise me then I'll be happy, but I have zero faith in it.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 20 Jun 2019 12:23 by MILKO</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.162&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.162"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_163"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_163"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">20 Jun 2019 18:19</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">163 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.163">42264.163</a></div> <div class="message_body"> And then there were two.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.163&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.163"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_164"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_164"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">20 Jun 2019 20:05</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">164 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.164">42264.164</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Picking what solace I can from the wreckage, I do think that all this shit does bring us nearer to PR. FPTP was being propped up by the Coke vs. Pepsi two party cartel; but it will look less attractive to them as they drop down the rankings. One clear outcome of the recent elections is that 21st century politics can't be expressed through a 19th century electoral process.<br /><br /> If we're not going to descend further down the pan of irrational polarisation, we need an electoral system which ensures that every vote - no matter how much I object to it - influences the complexion of government. My vote (Green) will get on other people's tits too.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.164&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.164"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_165"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_165"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">20 Jun 2019 23:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 21 Jun 2019 12:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">165 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.165">42264.165</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.156#a42264_164" target="_self">42264.164</a></div> <div class="message_body"> One must keep in mind that Israel has proportional representation, with regard to the practicality of the outcome.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.165&return_msg=42264.156" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.165"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="42264.166" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>