Brexit deal nigh or nyet? - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.0&return_msg=42264.109"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.81">81–90</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.91">91–100</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.101">101–110</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.111">111–120</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.191">191–200</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=42264.109">Brexit deal nigh or nyet?</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="42264_109_200_10"> <a name="a42264_109"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_109"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 14:11</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Mar 2019 15:56"></span></span> <span class="message_count">109 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.109">42264.109</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.108">42264.108</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Here we still haven't recovered from an attempted rebuild of the civil service payroll software, which has been through several time and cost overruns over the years and still doesn't work right, with some going unpaid for months because FUBAR.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.109&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.109"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_110"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_110"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 14:12</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Mar 2019 15:56"></span></span> <span class="message_count">110 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.110">42264.110</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.108">42264.108</a></div> <div class="message_body"> is there a sort of Keynesian argument that having to spend a shitload of money on doing this sort of thing will provide quite a few people with jobs and so on? I dunno, it's a bit tenuous! Just trying to eke out any kind of positive. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.110&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.110"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_111"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_111"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 15:59</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Mar 2019 16:00"></span></span> <span class="message_count">111 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.111">42264.111</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.108">42264.108</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Sounds like the kind of lash-up that in a world of crystalline perfection should be audited, and a new system built from the ground up.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.111&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.111"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_112"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_112"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 16:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Mar 2019 17:58"></span></span> <span class="message_count">112 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.112">42264.112</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.109#a42264_110" target="_self">42264.110</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Like HS2 and other capital projects. I think of them as the equivalent of follies in the eighteenth century: consciously or not providing redistribution of wealth during fallow times, whilst not undermining patronage or the value of labour.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.112&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.112"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_113"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_113"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 16:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 1 Apr 2019 07:32"></span></span> <span class="message_count">113 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.113">42264.113</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.109#a42264_111" target="_self">42264.111</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">a world of crystalline perfection</div> Yeah right.<br /><br /> Actually, it is (or was) regularly audited, ISO Certification and all that, but because it's so massive the actual audit could only be done on bite-sized pieces. The issues for rebuilding are as numerous as a big numbery thing and I'm not sure what kind of appetite HMRC has for mega-rebuilds. They got a nasty bite from flirting with Hadoop a while back.<br /><br /> @Milko, I'm sure a good Keynesian argument could be made. Problem is we (maybe) leave the EU in a few weeks and at best we get a transition of less than 2 years at which point the systems must chug along as sweetly as they do now. If there's no deal and no transition then Shit Creek is low on paddles.<br /><br /> @DSSMITHHFX, I'm not in the least bit surprised. Public projects like this have a history of never learning from the previous fuck-up. They almost always aim to select the best (=cheapest) bids but simultaneously fail to spot that there's a reason those bids are the cheapest. Also, senior managers in the public service are notoriously fond of shiny things when they buy IT. If they can see a shiny icon (on the shiny new laptop that comes with the project) and clicking the icon makes shiny things happen, then they invariably pony up the funding even if it's a million miles from what the business needs.<br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.113&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.113"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_114"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_114"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 17:30</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Mar 2019 20:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">114 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.114">42264.114</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.109#a42264_113" target="_self">42264.113</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system</a><br /><br /> Original estimate & launch date: $310 million, 2015<br /><br /> Current estimate: $2.2 billion, still not working.<br /><br /> Lots of finger-pointing, no accountability.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 28 Mar 2019 17:34 by DSMITHHFX</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.114&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.114"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_115"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_115"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 20:27</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 29 Mar 2019 00:15"></span></span> <span class="message_count">115 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.115">42264.115</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.109#a42264_114" target="_self">42264.114</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Interesting summary on wikipedia - and probably, when it comes to causes, some truth in all of them. I have to say that IBM has been one of the better companies I've worked with. OK, they're money-making bastards like all the rest, but generally, and at a personal level, they do seem to aim at ethical behaviour. <br /><br /> The "Quality" view, in all its depressing incarnations, is that it's cheaper to do it right first time. That was actually Phil Crosby's mantra. DIRFT. OK, in the real world that's no more than the benefit of hindsight, but when we're looking at public spending project disasters it does at least pay some dividends to look at the early stages. And yep! Nearly an 800% overspend, because correcting errors is bloody expensive.<br /><br /> I can't tell you how much I hate quality management in all its forms. Unless I just did.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 28 Mar 2019 20:28 by WILLIAMA</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.115&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.115"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_116"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_116"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 22:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Mar 2019 23:09"></span></span> <span class="message_count">116 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.116">42264.116</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.108">42264.108</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <i>> My guess would be that they are doing almost nothing because these systems are almost incomprehensibly huge and complex with inter-dependencies that are probably not even known in detail, parts dating back to the 1980s, 3rd party elements (e.g. SAP, IBM, BMC, etc etc) that are black boxes and so on. Any modelling of alternatives in anything other than the broadest most superficial ways would be a) very difficult b) very time consuming and c) most important, very expensive.</i> <p>Sounds like the perfect opportunity to offshore it to the cheapest team of underskilled front-end developers they can find, who will proceed to build it in whatever the current five favourite JavaScript frameworks are. <span class="emoticon e_tongue" title=":P"><span class="e__">:P</span></span></p><div class="edit_text">EDITED: 28 Mar 2019 22:52 by BOUGHTONP</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.116&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.116"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_117"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_117"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">28 Mar 2019 23:29</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 29 Mar 2019 17:13"></span></span> <span class="message_count">117 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.117">42264.117</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.109#a42264_116" target="_self">42264.116</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Hah! How dare you hint at the truth. Of course, one of these sad truths beginning to come home to some of our captains of finance is that the IT churning machine of Mumbai isn't Bombay any more and that just because you can get something wacked out at a bargain price in some shitty ERP shell, doesn't mean it'll be you who creams off the profit.<br /><br /> The other little nuisance is that it's hard to offshore anything that smells as though it might dish the dirt on UK tax liability. Imagine the annoyance if details of Jacob R M's tax affairs leaked out because his data found its way abroad. So we bring the buggers over here under various schemes. See how those damn natives love a decent wage - I mean it's still cheaper than paying our locals. But then there are complaints about that. I mean, how's an honest exploiter supposed to earn a living?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.117&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.117"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_118"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_118"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">29 Mar 2019 14:44</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">118 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.118">42264.118</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Third time lucky... not.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.118&return_msg=42264.109" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.118"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="42264.119" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>