In/out/shake it all about - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.0&return_msg=41766.61"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.41">41–50</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.51">51–60</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61">61–70</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.71">71–80</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.91">91–93</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41766.61">In/out/shake it all about</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41766_61_93_10"> <a name="a41766_61"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_61"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 00:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 06:00"></span></span> <span class="message_count">61 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61">41766.61</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.60">41766.60</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'm pretty confused by Boris' statement, but I'm guessing he got cold feet, and has no intention of carrying out what was voted for, assuming he'll be in a position to make that call.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.61&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.61"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_62"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_62"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 04:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">62 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.62">41766.62</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I was ambivalent about the EU vote and didn't vote. On the one hand I think the sooner we stop giving a shit about nation states and start thinking of ourselves as a planet the better. And the EU was (perhaps) a step towards that with free migration and federalising some aspects of government.<br /><br /> On the other hand the EU is, politically, a neoliberal trading cartel, a haven for the tax-dodging wealthy and dodgy corporate activity and a strong proponent (to say the least) of austerity. It's largely failed (if it was ever an aim) in redistributing wealth (wealth gaps just keep getting bigger) or facilitating progressive policy and/or social justice, at least at a greater rate than baseline.<br /><br /> It's difficult to disentangle because we don't know quite what our economy and laws would be like had we never been in the EU but I suspect that it did, generally, make things better (within it, that is, its treatment of external poor countries is another matter). I'd rather have cheap food and pissed off farmers than happy farmers and poor people starving.<br /><br /> I think the problem is/was that the poor benefited significantly less (or at the very least, less obviously) than the well-off.<br /><br /> The vote was used, I think, as is happening with other votes around the world (fromt he tea party to occupy to greece to sanders & trump to the EU), as an anti-establishment protest. I think neoliberal (regan/thatcher/clinton/blairite) politics has just left too many behind, at least relatively, and they feel disconnected and ignored.<br /><br /> Unfortunately this is coupled with a rejection of <em>all </em>elites which, as we see with Trump and the EU vote in particular, means not listening to experts and rejecting facts in favour of comfortable emotional bullshit.<br /><br /> I would've preferred a left-orchestrated exit from (or reform of) the EU than a right-wing one but I'm not entirely sure the right benefits from this exit. I really don't think Boris and the rest expected to win and are surely going to be blamed for the coming economic fuckery.<br /><br /> Labour is in a mess, though. I think Corbyn has the right kind of ideas but he's fucking awful at communicating them. And is obviously being held back by the (large) blairite third-way faction in the parliamentary party. The public has, I believe, rejected their political philosophy and he needs to use that as a mandate to be rid of them and speak, with a rational voice and a return to fact, for those who feel mistreated by and disaffected towards the mainstream politics of the last ~30 years. Otherwise Labour is a pointless third neoliberal centre-right party.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.62&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.62"> <span class="rating">+3/3</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_63"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_63"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 11:33</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 12:39"></span></span> <span class="message_count">63 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.63">41766.63</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61#a41766_62" target="_self">41766.62</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Labour appears completely fucked, today. Total rebellion from their PLP but with apparently fuck all of an actual plan... it's oddly reminiscent of the Leave campaign in fact. I don't really see how they're going to get back from this any time soon unless Corbyn sorts it out convincingly. That's a pretty big unless.<br /><br /> I posted much of the same thing as your opinions in the other thread, I think. There are good reasons to want to leave, but the people in charge of us leaving are not going to be going in that direction, just the opposite.<br /> Actually that does seem to have changed a bit over the weekend and today, it turns out that the people in charge of us leaving actually possibly don't want to after all, they're just going to mess everything up so badly that nothing much changes apart from us having the recession. Article 50 still not triggered.<br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 27 Jun 2016 11:34 by MILKO</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.63&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.63"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_64"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_64"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 12:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: koswix <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 15:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">64 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.64">41766.64</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.56">41766.56</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">There are "experts" on both sides of the debate, but anyone claiming to be an expert most likely isn't one.</div> <p>On that, there - and on many issues here - we have a solid, common ground.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Even after reading your source, there is no argument - just rhetoric.</div> <p><br /> There were facts (?), figures and reasons, kos. Are you saying they are all made up and not a ring of truth to any of them?<br /><br /> </p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.64&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.64"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_65"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_65"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 12:36</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 12:50"></span></span> <span class="message_count">65 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.65">41766.65</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61#a41766_63" target="_self">41766.63</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I think Labour's one chance of winning a snap election, albeit a very slim one, was for it to consolidate behind Corbyn, and help him to capitalize on the 'brexit buyers' remorse', which financial markets are turning into a roaring conflagration as we speak.<br /><br /> If they're going into a bitter and divisive leadership campaign, which Corbyn is almost bound to win if his name is on the ballot (according to party rules, it must be), then they might as well throw in the towel now, and prepare for a Boris coronation.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 27 Jun 2016 12:36 by DSMITHHFX</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.65&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.65"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_66"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_66"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: koswix<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 15:04</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Jun 2016 02:11"></span></span> <span class="message_count">66 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.66">41766.66</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61#a41766_64" target="_self">41766.64</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Very few figures were given, those that were were not cited, and stating an opinion ("too much immigration" or "the euro has failed" for example) does it make them fact, they are still just opinion. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.66&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.66"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_67"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_67"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 15:50</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 23:37"></span></span> <span class="message_count">67 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.67">41766.67</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61#a41766_62" target="_self">41766.62</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I heard him speak about 6 months ago and he came over well, but that was with a receptive audience. He treats his audience with respect and doesn't dumb down his message which means that with a proportion of the electorate he is bound to fail. Somebody like Boris who comes on with arms aloft and announces 'Big!' nods a couple of times and follows through with 'Shiny!' will succeed.<br /><br /> But Corbyn's real problem is the opposition ranked against him, and that's the vast majority of the press and other media and his own parliamentary party who were busy briefing against him before the ink was dry on his candidacy. The behaviour of both is just jaw-dropping. If there's a Tory crisis then expect the story to be 'Corbyn not up to exploiting Tory crisis' and the press can pick from twenty third way Labour MPs to provide soundbites. You will almost never see footage of one of his speeches. What you will see is Laura Kuenssberg with her claims about what he must be thinking, usually with a few of her barbed remarks presented as factual reporting. On Saturday morning The BBC gave Ann Coffey an 'interview' where she was able to present a character assassination of Corbyn without a challenge or critical question. the following morning, a scheduled appearance by the shadow chancellor John McDonnell was replaced with an interview with Hilary Benn, again largely unchallenged and uncritical. Sweet old Hilary gave his faint praise destruction of Corbyn with relish, every inch the conspirator - the kind of thing that would have had his father spinning in his grave.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.67&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.67"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_68"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_68"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">30 Jun 2016 14:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">68 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.68">41766.68</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Whoa.<br /><br /> Just like that, <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/30/brexit-live-theresa-may-and-boris-johnson-set-to-announce-leadership-bids">BoJo's out</a></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.68&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.68"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_69"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_69"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">30 Jun 2016 14:15</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 30 Jun 2016 14:15"></span></span> <span class="message_count">69 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.69">41766.69</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61#a41766_68" target="_self">41766.68</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <img alt="" src="http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif" style="width:315px;height:210px;" /><br /><br /> The 7 days since the referendum are getting very much out of hand.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.69&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.69"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_70"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_70"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: dave (10_ROGUE)<span class="message_time">30 Jun 2016 14:16</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 30 Jun 2016 14:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">70 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.70">41766.70</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61#a41766_68" target="_self">41766.68</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Wasn't he moved from education secretary to chief whip before the last election because no one can stand him? What does he think has changed? I thought there was more than a touch of machiavelli about him, but he's pulled a proper bait and switch with Boris.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 30 Jun 2016 14:17 by 10_ROGUE</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.70&return_msg=41766.61" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.70"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41766.71" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>