In/out/shake it all about - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.0&return_msg=41766.54"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.31">31–40</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.41">41–50</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.51">51–60</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61">61–70</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.91">91–93</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41766.54">In/out/shake it all about</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41766_54_93_10"> <a name="a41766_54"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_54"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">26 Jun 2016 10:17</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">54 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.54">41766.54</a></div> <div class="message_body"> 'Why not Texit?': Texas nationalists look to the Brexit vote for inspiration<br /> <br /> <a href="http://gu.com/p/4yjk4?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard">http://gu.com/p/4yjk4?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard</a></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.54&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.54"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_55"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_55"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time">26 Jun 2016 12:36</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: koswix <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 26 Jun 2016 12:36"></span></span> <span class="message_count">55 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.55">41766.55</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.53">41766.53</a></div> <div class="message_body"> OK, kos. So tell me: why are <u>you</u> right and <u>they </u>are wrong? 53% disagree with you. Of the seven arguments for leaving, why are they invalid?<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">here you go again, confusing feelings with reality.</div> <p>Don't get cute. There is no reality in Brexit for me, kos - at least not yet - I DON'T LIVE THERE. Since I removed my money from the stock market long ago and invested elsewhere, that won't affect me directly, either.<br /><br /> Instead of telling me one-word answers to reasons I posted (again, sorry for not sourcing it), how about telling my why "experts" are wrong? Are you a political science, global affairs expert? That is a serious question kos.<br /><br /> Is it possible that there are people in Britain that voted the way they did on emotion alone? Why would they vote to exit the EU if the ramifications are as bad as you say? Remember, because I live in the U.S., we are getting a slanted view of things. The issue is much more complex than most over here would know.<br /><br /> It is interesting to note, as I read some news about Brexit, that it isn't even a done deal yet. Parliament has to approve the measure which may not happen for up to two years - is this true? The other issue is Article 50 and how it will be applied, together with having to repeal the European Communities Act. It's not such a neat and tidy package.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.55&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.55"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_56"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_56"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: koswix<span class="message_time">26 Jun 2016 12:47</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 11:39"></span></span> <span class="message_count">56 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.56">41766.56</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.54#a41766_55" target="_self">41766.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> You haven't posted 7 arguments for leaving. Even after reading your source, there is no argument - just rhetoric. To argue is to present evidence to support your position, and there is very little evidence to support any of the 7 points you quoted. <br /> <br /> Take immigration as an example. Net migration last year was equivalent to 0.5% population growth. If our infrastructure can't handle 0.5% increase in population then I would suggest the problem is lack of investment and proper planning, not migration, that's the problem. We have a falling birth rate and aging population, we *need* migration to keep our society running. Politicians on both sides know that, which is why the Leave campaign and now backtracking on their promise to stop migration from the EU.<br /> <br /> There are "experts" on both sides of the debate, but anyone claiming to be an expert most likely isn't one. <br /> <br /> I think the vast majority of people voted on emotion alone, one of the major soundbites from the Leave campaign in the last few days was "people in this country are sick of listening to experts", which pretty much sums up the Leave vote for me. They'd happily shoot themselves in face, as long as they get to kick Johnny Foreigner in the balls at the same time. <br /> <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.56&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.56"> <span class="rating">+2/2</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_57"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_57"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">26 Jun 2016 12:47</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 11:39"></span></span> <span class="message_count">57 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.57">41766.57</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.54#a41766_55" target="_self">41766.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <i>> It is interesting to note, as I read some news about Brexit, that it isn't even a done deal yet.</i> <p>The referendum was basically an opinion poll, and does not in itself activate Article 50 - though its result does nullify the negotiations David Cameron made earlier this year. The two year figure you've heard is the default maximum (it can be extended) for negotiations if/when Article 50 comes into play. </p><p>There's information on the process here: <a href="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/13802.htm">http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/13802.htm</a> </p><p>The summary section (after chapter 7) gives an overview if you don't want to read it all, or there's a <a href="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/138.pdf">single 304 KB PDF document</a> if preferred.</p></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.57&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.57"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_58"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_58"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">26 Jun 2016 15:13</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 11:39"></span></span> <span class="message_count">58 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.58">41766.58</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.54#a41766_55" target="_self">41766.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">There is no reality in Brexit for me</div> <p>So... what is it you are talking about, exactly?</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.58&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.58"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_59"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_59"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time">26 Jun 2016 23:31</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">59 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.59">41766.59</a></div> <div class="message_body"> It is a very interesting situation to watch. Of course, as I said, I will avoid expressing my opinion about if it is a good / bad decision to exit the EU, especially since it doesn't matter.<br /><br /> A couple of observations from the far west side of the US (based on information from our perfectly unbiased news feeds of course)<br /><br /> a) Good luck with things. I really mean this with the best of intentions.<br /><br /> b) Usually these types of events have less impact than expected, because financial institutions hate instability, so they will pressure all of the governments involved into figuring it out.<br /><br /> c) We have the exact same challenge of laws / taxes / debt being passed in California with just 50.1 % of a vote. It leads to many poor decisions. (again, I am not saying that Brexit is good / bad - really don't know). I just cannot understand how a law can be passed as meeting a "majority of votes" with less than 60%. That is just not a sufficient % to base a decision that affects peoples lives. <br /><br /> 50.1 % might be enough to decide what type of wine or beer to order, but not for laws and taxes.<br /><br /> d) The UK has already started on its path to be part of China by joining it's version of the IMF. This vote more or less seems to seal this fate, much to my dismay, as I am not a fan of China policies.<br /><br /> e) At least here in the US, we didn't interpret the vote as being racist driven at all, rather that similar to here, a lot of people are being left behind by the economy, and the value of our own currency has fallen rather dramatically. Meet the $50 bill, its the new $20. In "constant dollars", most wages here have fallen.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.59&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.59"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_60"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_60"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">26 Jun 2016 23:43</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">60 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.60">41766.60</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Looks like any gains on the GBP/USD rate made later on Friday have already been lost. <br /> <br /> Throw in Labour imploding and we're looking at an interesting week/month/year. <br /> <br /> May as well add Boris saying it wasn't an overwhelming victory and that we will continue very much part of Europe (obviously geographically, but he clearly means politically and economically).<br /> <br /> The GBP/USD rate will have a big impact on my job, significant imports from China which are all done in USD.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.60&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.60"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_61"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_61"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 00:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 06:00"></span></span> <span class="message_count">61 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.61">41766.61</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.54#a41766_60" target="_self">41766.60</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'm pretty confused by Boris' statement, but I'm guessing he got cold feet, and has no intention of carrying out what was voted for, assuming he'll be in a position to make that call.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.61&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.61"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_62"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_62"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 04:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">62 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.62">41766.62</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I was ambivalent about the EU vote and didn't vote. On the one hand I think the sooner we stop giving a shit about nation states and start thinking of ourselves as a planet the better. And the EU was (perhaps) a step towards that with free migration and federalising some aspects of government.<br /><br /> On the other hand the EU is, politically, a neoliberal trading cartel, a haven for the tax-dodging wealthy and dodgy corporate activity and a strong proponent (to say the least) of austerity. It's largely failed (if it was ever an aim) in redistributing wealth (wealth gaps just keep getting bigger) or facilitating progressive policy and/or social justice, at least at a greater rate than baseline.<br /><br /> It's difficult to disentangle because we don't know quite what our economy and laws would be like had we never been in the EU but I suspect that it did, generally, make things better (within it, that is, its treatment of external poor countries is another matter). I'd rather have cheap food and pissed off farmers than happy farmers and poor people starving.<br /><br /> I think the problem is/was that the poor benefited significantly less (or at the very least, less obviously) than the well-off.<br /><br /> The vote was used, I think, as is happening with other votes around the world (fromt he tea party to occupy to greece to sanders & trump to the EU), as an anti-establishment protest. I think neoliberal (regan/thatcher/clinton/blairite) politics has just left too many behind, at least relatively, and they feel disconnected and ignored.<br /><br /> Unfortunately this is coupled with a rejection of <em>all </em>elites which, as we see with Trump and the EU vote in particular, means not listening to experts and rejecting facts in favour of comfortable emotional bullshit.<br /><br /> I would've preferred a left-orchestrated exit from (or reform of) the EU than a right-wing one but I'm not entirely sure the right benefits from this exit. I really don't think Boris and the rest expected to win and are surely going to be blamed for the coming economic fuckery.<br /><br /> Labour is in a mess, though. I think Corbyn has the right kind of ideas but he's fucking awful at communicating them. And is obviously being held back by the (large) blairite third-way faction in the parliamentary party. The public has, I believe, rejected their political philosophy and he needs to use that as a mandate to be rid of them and speak, with a rational voice and a return to fact, for those who feel mistreated by and disaffected towards the mainstream politics of the last ~30 years. Otherwise Labour is a pointless third neoliberal centre-right party.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.62&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.62"> <span class="rating">+3/3</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41766_63"></a><div class="message" id="message_41766_63"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">27 Jun 2016 11:33</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Jun 2016 12:39"></span></span> <span class="message_count">63 of 93</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.63">41766.63</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41766.54#a41766_62" target="_self">41766.62</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Labour appears completely fucked, today. Total rebellion from their PLP but with apparently fuck all of an actual plan... it's oddly reminiscent of the Leave campaign in fact. I don't really see how they're going to get back from this any time soon unless Corbyn sorts it out convincingly. That's a pretty big unless.<br /><br /> I posted much of the same thing as your opinions in the other thread, I think. There are good reasons to want to leave, but the people in charge of us leaving are not going to be going in that direction, just the opposite.<br /> Actually that does seem to have changed a bit over the weekend and today, it turns out that the people in charge of us leaving actually possibly don't want to after all, they're just going to mess everything up so badly that nothing much changes apart from us having the recession. Article 50 still not triggered.<br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 27 Jun 2016 11:34 by MILKO</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41766.63&return_msg=41766.54" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41766.63"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41766.64" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>