Gun Laws - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.0&return_msg=41226.56"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.31">31–40</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.41">41–50</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.51">51–60</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.61">61–70</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.171">171–177</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41226.56">Gun Laws</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41226_56_177_10"> <a name="a41226_56"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_56"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 12:36</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 17:20"></span></span> <span class="message_count">56 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.56">41226.56</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.44">41226.44</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I would be interested as to what you meant by:</div> <p>Actually, I think most statistics are somewhat bullshit. There are too many variables to consider especially in something controversial such as this, and even the shit I posted was something I found which applied to my argument. The problem with statistics in many cases is, If I am defending gun ownership I can be subjective and "find" information supporting my argument and the reverse is also true. Cherry-picked data. The crap I posted about knives was probably from some anti-knife zealot.<br /><br /> I can't really trust statistics from either side, to be fair. Figures lie and liars figure. Nobody is truly objectibive and that is what the whole argument/discussion is about.<br /><br /> Why aren't knives also mentioned by Freud (or maybe they were and I was nodding off during the lecture). I mean, they are male-shaped, aren't they? I never really thought of the gun as an extension of the penis so much as an extension of the hand or fist. I am not sexually aroused by guns. Other, kinky things perhaps, but that is fodder for another discussion and perhaps you are not keen to know. [G]</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.56&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.56"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_57"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_57"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 12:38</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 12:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">57 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.57">41226.57</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.54">41226.54</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">For example, Joe comes home, finds some guy he doesn't know plowing the stuffing out of his wife and he doesn't take the time to figure out whether she is enjoying it or not. He assumes she is being raped, pulls out his pistol and shoots him. Make the scenario any way you want, but the end result is still likely the same.</div> I wouldn't shoot the man.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Or Joe comes home, hears noise in house and gets his gun from the garage or shed, then surprises some guy rifling through his desk drawers with belongings strewn everywhere. Joe confronts the assumed burglar and he turns toward Joe with something in his hands and Joe shoots him.</div> I wouldn't shoot the man.<br /><br /><br /> If someone shoots at you, maybe (probably) it is justifiable. You then go down the messy route of shooting because you /think/ someone has a gun - then there's the excuse of shooting them to protect yourself in case they have a gun.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.57&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.57"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_58"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_58"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 12:41</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Al JunioR (53NORTH) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Oct 2014 04:22"></span></span> <span class="message_count">58 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.58">41226.58</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.45">41226.45</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Not knowing what Skegness is, I am at a loss. So I don't necessarily want to carry a gun, so where does that leave me in your IQ scenario there, Carnac?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.58&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.58"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_59"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_59"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 12:53</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 13:27"></span></span> <span class="message_count">59 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.59">41226.59</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.52">41226.52</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yup I go along with what Ant is saying there. Threats to life are worth killing over sometimes - but simple burglary is not. Although actually when you talk of cars being entered and so on it seems like you'd lean towards burglary being worthy of the death sentence too. I'd see it as very annoying but ultimately just some possessions that can be replaced.<br /><br /> Of course I don't know how I'd react in the heat of the moment, I have thankfully never confronted someone in the act of breaking and entering my property. But not having a gun myself I'm actually glad I won't have to worry about that.<br /><br /> And I live in London which is plenty city! And where I lived in Leeds a lot of people were putting security grilles over ground floor windows and doors so not exactly nice either. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.59&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.59"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_60"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_60"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 13:27</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 14:00"></span></span> <span class="message_count">60 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.60">41226.60</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.55">41226.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I might be wrong and I don't know any statistics on this, but what sort of people rob houses? I kinda think it's more likely to be people who are in need, someone who needs money for drugs, can't feed their children because they're out of work. A lot of people need to be pretty desperate to rob someone's house. These people don't need killing, they need helping.</div> <p>What sort of people rob houses? They could be all sorts. They could be punk kids who have nothing better to do, or punk kids needing to support a drug habit. It could be some strung-out meth head with an unpredictable nature. It could be someone who has done nothing but crime all their lives. I am out of work and I have not had to rob anyone's house to feed my family.<br /><br /> Sorry, mate, but if someone breaks into my house I don't have time to play Dr, Phil or interview them. They are already a threat so they are going to get help, possibly permanent help. Help that means they need want no longer. I think you have an overly simplistic, idealistic view of crime and criminals. There are skinheads here, neo-nazis, whack jobs, malcontents and just some general jerk-offs running around. We have some arsehole up in the Poconos who killed one State Trooper and wounded another. Yeah, OK- he killed a police officer. So he needs to be shot, right?<br /><br /> Guess what? If he shows up at my house he will get shot by me no questions asked. I would probably get a commendation for it and of course it is an extreme example. You are approaching this as though in all cases the people being shot are general, all-around good people. In many or most cases, they are not.<br /><br /> Oscar Pistorious is likely to get away with manslaughter because of his celebrity, not because he is not guilty of killing his girlfriend. He is an example of taking the breaking and entering bit to an implausible extreme. I have followed a bit of that case and I really cannot see how he did that and thought there was a burglar. Nonsense.<br /><br /> A person does not have to have a gun to be a threat in someone's house. The delay in not taking someone else's life in a robbery situation may be the difference between your living or dying, or someone in your family living or dying. Say I find a guy in my house, confront him with a gun and he runs out of ny bedroom or living room and to my daughter, taking her as a hostage? I won't take that chance, especially with a dsperate person. Maybe they are desperate, maybe just dangerous. No percentage in it for me to find out; I'll be glad to be edified later.<br /><br /> Actually, I hope to never have to be in that situation. It would never be easy.<br /><br /> ** LOL, stopping and entering is not a crime. <span class="emoticon e_smile" title=":-)"><span class="e__">:-)</span></span> </p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 6 Oct 2014 22:00 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.60&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.60"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_61"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_61"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 13:32</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 13:44"></span></span> <span class="message_count">61 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.61">41226.61</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.56#a41226_59" target="_self">41226.59</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I didn't say I would shoot someone over my car being entered; you are putting words in my mouth or jumping to a conclusion. I did say breaking and entering my <em>house</em>.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.61&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.61"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_62"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_62"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 13:42</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 14:00"></span></span> <span class="message_count">62 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.62">41226.62</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.56#a41226_57" target="_self">41226.57</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I wouldn't shoot the man.</div> <p>Set up for tea, perhaps?<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">If someone shoots at you, maybe (probably) it is justifiable.</div> <p>By then, it may be too late and the point is moot. The difference between you and me is, I am not going to wait. This is an age old argument, but it bears repeating for it is the absolute truth: <strong>If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. </strong><br /><br /> But this thread is derailed anyway. The thread title is Gun Laws. I have stated already that if the U.S. would simply follow and enforce the laws we already have, we would be in much better shape. We are on a side track of hypothetical situations that, though possible, are still hypothetical. No one actually knows what they will do in a given situation in the heat of the moment, and there are any number of scenarios that can involve guns, knives, baseball/cricket bats, heavy vases, bare hands, wine bottles, books, frying pans or other household items that can be used for killing in the heat of the moment. Every single item I mentioned has been used to kill. One woman in Texas fatally stabbed her boyfriend with a stilleto heel. Killer heels, mmmmmm! <span class="emoticon e_tongue" title=":-P"><span class="e__">:-P</span></span><br /><br /><img alt="" src="http://www.trbimg.com/img-533b3088/turbine/la-na-nn-bloody-shoe-texas-stiletto-heel-murde-001/512" /></p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 6 Oct 2014 13:43 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.62&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.62"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_63"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_63"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 13:50</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 13:51"></span></span> <span class="message_count">63 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.63">41226.63</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.56#a41226_61" target="_self">41226.61</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Well apologies if I am, you said <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">We have had people have their cars entered (my neighborhood and right next door) and personal effects stolen, homes entered via screens being cut with a knife and valuables stolen. There have also been prowlers in vans looking for young children and/or women.</div> <br /> Which to me is conflating all of those as "will get shot at by me if I see 'em" by the context of the rest of your post. Or otherwise, how is it anything to do with the wisdom of having a gun? Anyway, if that's not what you meant, apologies once again for getting it wrong. <span style="color:#D3D3D3;">Don't shoot!</span><br /><br /> Given that you 'merkans are in the minority on this forum I guess this could all feel a bit like you're being a bit ganged up on by us here so just wanted to say for sure that it isn't. As has long been observed in this thread we can't expect to convince one another, only obtain greater understanding <span class="emoticon e_smile" title=":)"><span class="e__">:)</span></span></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.63&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.63"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_64"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_64"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 14:08</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 15:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">64 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.64">41226.64</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.56#a41226_63" target="_self">41226.63</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I don't feel ganged up on at all. As a matter of fact, compared to a few years ago when "we" Americans would participate in your Forum (well, really it is ours in the greater scheme of things, as members) I think things have calmed down a bit.<br /><br /> I am much older now and not quite as likely to get incensed at a post I disagree with, now I am more likely to perhaps take the piss, be sarcastic or sardonic in reply - or even (Gasp!) ask for clarification. I think your views would be fairly consistent with how they probably should be.<br /><br /> When I visited there in 2000 via a Land Rover sponsored trip, I found England to be an idyllic, magical place; I was in Stratford-upon-Avon and the "worst" thing I saw was a couple of young women who flashed their boobs as they walked across the (a) bridge of the Avon (forgive me that I do not recall if the bridge has a proper name) - an action I found not objectionable in the least. I found my time there to be quite different than anything I could possibly find in America and I reveled in the differences. The fact that my mum was born there only added to the allure.<br /><br /> So I got to experience some of the best that England has to offer, but by no means complete. I am sure if you came here, I would hope that you would be exposed to our best and never experience anything unpleasant. Fortunately, the pleasant outweighs the unpleasant tenfold. The media unforunately plays up the negative things because it sells.<br /><br /> All this by way of saying, yes - we might actually be better off if we didn't have guns here. But the other side of the coin is, because we have had them for so long, there are far too many people who shouldn't have them as compared to the people who really could have them for a nonviolent use. Some people will look at the recent militarisation of police departments across the U.S. as a sign of foreboding and cling even tighter to their 2nd Amendment rights. If you are interested in it, you can easily find out about it on any U.s. news web site.<br /><br /> Perhaps all we need do is spend more time on vacations intead of the too many hours we spend as a country working and then spending money on crap we can ill afford, creating a perpetual loop of workaholism.<br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.64&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.64"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_65"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_65"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Mizzy<span class="message_time"> 6 Oct 2014 14:24</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 6 Oct 2014 15:44"></span></span> <span class="message_count">65 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.65">41226.65</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.56#a41226_64" target="_self">41226.64</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Another point of view I heard recently is that a lot of the gun crime is down to the lack of mental healthcare available to those members of society which can't afford health insurance but their income falls just above medicare levels and even medicare doesn't cover much,<br /><br /> I Promise i'm not trolling <span class="emoticon e_wink" title=";-)"><span class="e__">;-)</span></span> I just wanted to get your opinion on that viewpoint, given the huge negative reaction we heard on our news feeds relating to Obamacare.<br /><br /> Over here even with our NHS, mental health care is best sought privately , the nhs only tend to get involved once you get to sectioning a person (placed in a secure unit for their own good) which is waaaay past the point a person needs help, so it's not much better here.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.65&return_msg=41226.56" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.65"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41226.66" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>