Gun Laws - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.0&return_msg=41226.5"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.11">11–20</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.171">171–177</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41226.5">Gun Laws</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41226_5_177_10"> <a name="a41226_5"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_5"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Mizzy<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 13:19</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 13:23"></span></span> <span class="message_count">5 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5">41226.5</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.1">41226.1</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Pretty much against private citizen gun Ownership, more guns in peoples hands = more shootings and gun shenanigans.<br /><br /> Humans cant be trusted to not shoot one another, we're all barely evolved simians with weak impulse control. <span class="emoticon e_devil" title="(devil)"><span class="e__">(devil)</span></span> <br /><br /> But I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.<br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.5&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.5"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_6"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_6"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 13:57</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Mizzy <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 17:34"></span></span> <span class="message_count">6 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.6">41226.6</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_5" target="_self">41226.5</a></div> <div class="message_body"> It is a little more complicated than that, I'm afraid. My perspective will naturally be different since I live where private gun ownership is legal.<br /><br /> I believe than guns should be legal in the hands of private citizens if they pass background checks, have no criminal record of felonies or misdemeanors involving guns or weapon-related violence. I think Federal law is clear on this.<br /><br /> The problems I have with our gun laws in the U.S. involves straw purchases, not following or properly prosecuting gun laws we currently have, and lack of controls to prevent criminals from getting guns. The last thing is probably the most difficult of all.<br /><br /> Although I support gun ownership for normally law-abiding citizens (and it is our Second Amendment right as well), I also support gun controls. I believe folks who buy guns need to be vetted carefully and it should not be a process that is instantaneous, especially for hand guns.<br /><br /> All prospective gun owners should have to undergo training and evaluation to in order to determine whether or not their gun ownership should be allowed. The training and evaluation should be done prior to being able to purchase the gun and buying a gun afterward should still be subject to approval. It takes less time currently to buy a gun than it takes to get a license to sell cars. It should cost prospective gun owners money to access and take the training necessary.<br /><br /> Permits to carry concealed weapons also should be a more rigorous process. That said, I would venture a guess that several police officers would not qualify.<br /><br /> I'll give more thoughts later as I have some things to do, but I do believe that not every person should be able to buy a gun. We would do better here if we actually followed the laws we currently have and removed any loopholes that allow purchase of guns by people who are clearly not fit mentally, or have some other past history that suggests they could be problematic when in possession of a gun.<br /><br /> I own three guns; one is an old, post WWII (I think, maybe from the mid fifties) Carcano bolt action rifle that I would be hesistant to fire even if I had ammo for it. I would want it tested in a firing frame by a gunsmith before firing it, but I will likely never do that. It has a crack forward of the magazine chamber that could be a problem sooner if not later. I also own a Ruger .22 target pistol that I purchased years ago. I have had it since maybe the late 80s and have not fired more than perhaps 500 rounds in all that time. The other "handgun" I have is an air pellet/bb gun which I have probably fired about 3,000 rounds from. It is old, requires pumping, and is not particularly accurate due to having had the sight banged. It can be considered lethal in some circumstances, but the time it takes to pump it, load it, cock it and fire it make it particularly unsuitable for other than casual use. It is also suffering from wear.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.6&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.6"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_7"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_7"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 14:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 14:08"></span></span> <span class="message_count">7 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.7">41226.7</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_6" target="_self">41226.6</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Interesting. Given you don't (essentially) own a working gun, why are you keen for it to remain legal?<br /><br /> I completely agree that if the USA were somehow able to implement rigorous process on gun permits that you'd have a lot of police failing said checks. <br /><br /> I also think your processes would need to involve quite frequent re-checks, as it's common to be mentally fit and then crack later, of course. And the security required by owners to stop un-certified people accessing them is a factor too.<br /><br /> What do you think is stopping the USA from following the laws it actually has already, and removing the loopholes still there?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.7&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.7"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_8"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_8"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 14:13</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 14:20"></span></span> <span class="message_count">8 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.8">41226.8</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_6" target="_self">41226.6</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Why do you support gun ownership for even the most sane/stable people?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.8&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.8"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_9"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_9"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 14:20</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 16:39"></span></span> <span class="message_count">9 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.9">41226.9</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_7" target="_self">41226.7</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I do own two working, operable guns. The .22 is cleaned, locked and out of sight. The pellat gun is just a silly thing that I have recently run out of ammo for.<br /><br /> Frequent rechecks would be an excellent idea, I'd suggest no more than two years, paid for by the gun owner.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><br /> What do you think is stopping the USA from following the laws it actually has already, and removing the loopholes still there?</div> <p>Not sure. Being a law abiding citizen (well, I do drive fast like everyone else) I don't follow it much beyond the controversies I hear about. The gun lobby is strong and I suppose our size makes enforcement difficult, along with people and gun dealers who don't think they should be told what to do. You could have that with knives as well and we have a similar issue with drugs. Our own former Attorney General Eric Holder had "gun problems", didn't he? He was the Top Cop and he had a gun problem.<br /><br /> People will say that guns don't kill people, people kill people. While true to a degree, it is a gross over-simplification.<br /> </p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.9&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.9"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_10"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_10"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 14:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">10 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10">41226.10</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_8" target="_self">41226.8</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Because it is one of our rights as citizens of the United States, for one. I do not consider rights to be something that should be given away.<br /><br /> The second reason, which will most probably be miscontrued, is because the military have guns, the police have guns and the criminals have guns. The Police and Military are there to protect The People Should such time arrive as either of the first two become like the thrid, who will protect The People?<br /><br /><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RVXx-NejsK8" style="height:360px;margin:0px auto;width:480px;"></iframe><br /><br /> Now, I don't see how Ice T's comment leaves Mike Moore "cold", although he does have to think about it for a bit. But that which was written in the Bill of Rights as the Secon Amendment then is no less valid today, perhaps more so. Police in some circumstances are not to be trusted 100%. Apparently there needs to be more evaluation done there as well. I could find any number of examples of law enforcement abuse, corruption, rape theft, racketeering, illeagal search and seizure, unwarranted traffic stops by just picking one state from the union. Is it to the level that guns need be in every home? No. But it could happen. I was a Boy Scout once and I watched the Lion King.<br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.10&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.10"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_11"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_11"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:18</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">11 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.11">41226.11</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_10" target="_self">41226.10</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Because it is one of our rights as citizens of the United States, for one. I do not consider rights to be something that should be given away.</div> I think this is the idea/view that I have difficultly with. It seems like an easy get out for why you should have guns.<br /><br /> Ignore that it's written in a document made a few hundred years ago, ignore that it's your "right".<br /><br /> I think you may have a slight point about a possible defence against corrupt Police, but realistically you're not going to shoot a cop.<br /><br /> It seems clear to me that access to guns creates fear and the need for more people to own guns. The more access there is, the easier it is for guns to get in the hands of criminals and the unstable.<br /><br /> If there was complete gun control then the criminals would find it much more difficult to get hold of guns, obviously not impossible, but much much harder.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.11&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.11"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_12"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_12"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:48</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:50"></span></span> <span class="message_count">12 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.12">41226.12</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_11" target="_self">41226.11</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Ignore that it's written in a document made a few hundred years ago, ignore that it's your "right".</div> <p>About 236 years or so, but I can't ignore either because history tends to repeat. It is just a prudent view to me rather than a necessary viewpoint if that makes sense to you.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">If there was complete gun control then the criminals would find it much more difficult to get hold of guns, obviously not impossible, but much much harder.</div> <p>It seems that would be a valid reason for total gun control, but it didn't work in Australia.<br /><br /> I hope I am never in a position that I have to choose between shooting a cop or not. But if I have done nothing wrong and fear for my life, it would be his that I would relieve him of. I cannot however currently imagine a scanario that would require it, but I still reserve the ability and right to protect myself. I am not sure a .22 would be a particularly effective weapon against a 9mm, .45 or a .40, unless I Aim small, Miss Small. <span class="emoticon e_wink" title=";-)"><span class="e__">;-)</span></span> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><b>Those who would give up <u><a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Essential" title="Essential">essential</a> <a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Liberty" title="Liberty">Liberty</a></u>, to purchase a little temporary <a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Safety" title="Safety">Safety</a>, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.</b> ~ Benjamin Franklin, from Wikiquotes.</div> <p><br /><br /> </p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 3 Oct 2014 15:52 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.12&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.12"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_13"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_13"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Monsoir (PILOTDAN)<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:52</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:52"></span></span> <span class="message_count">13 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.13">41226.13</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_12" target="_self">41226.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Problem is these aren't arguments - it's essentially the gun control version of "The Bible Says"</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.13&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.13"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_14"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_14"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:53</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Monsoir (PILOTDAN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:58"></span></span> <span class="message_count">14 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.14">41226.14</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.5#a41226_13" target="_self">41226.13</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Explain that.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.14&return_msg=41226.5" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.14"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41226.15" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>