Gun Laws - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.0&return_msg=41226.18"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21">21–30</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.171">171–177</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41226.18">Gun Laws</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41226_18_177_10"> <a name="a41226_18"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_18"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Mizzy<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 17:59</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 18:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">18 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18">41226.18</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.16">41226.16</a></div> <div class="message_body"> iOS 8 safari just crashed on me again <span class="emoticon e_unsure" title=":-/"><span class="e__">:-/</span></span> 2nd attempt<br /> <br /> In the case of the U.S. the cats out of the bag already, criminalising gun ownership wouldn't work and would hand the criminals a huge advantage, and criminalise the rest who would refuse to give up their weapons, the best you can hope for is as you say reduction in ownership by properly imposing sensible controls on ownership including psych Evals regularly (every two years seems sensible to me).<br /> <br /> We did actually allow private gun ownership over here which was legislated away during the 80's after dunblaine etc. <br /> <br /> I have handled and fired weapons just pistols and shotguns, in the presence of my father at a gun range a long time ago. And a crossbow and longbow elsewhere, I cant say I miss them I always felt uncomfortable handling them, <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.18&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.18"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_19"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_19"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Mizzy<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 18:09</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 18:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">19 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.19">41226.19</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.16">41226.16</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I would also like to know a reason for allowing gun ownership other than we always have, or because this document written a age ago says I can.<br /> <br /> I can think of quite a few perfectly good reasons not to own a gun, but precious few as a reason to own one, the only argument I can come up with is "because at some point The owner may feel the need to kill someone else" which makes me deeply uncomfortable handing that person a weapon.<br /> <br /> Given the trajectory of democratic capitalism, an envitable societal crash is going to happen, and competition for resources (food clothing personal liberty) may remove this choice from all of us < tongue in cheek>;<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 3 Oct 2014 18:11 by MIZZY</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.19&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.19"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_20"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_20"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 21:47</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 22:52"></span></span> <span class="message_count">20 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.20">41226.20</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.17">41226.17</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I think Ant's question is: why should <em>that</em> in particular <em>be</em> a right.</div> <p>Well, not to be cheeky or answer a question with a question, but why shouldn't it be a right? Historically has always been and we have been fine with it. Murders and killings will still happen with or without guns. Knives are also used for killing, so we also outlaw those under Knife Control?<br /><br /> Now, having said that. "Because that is the way we have always done it" is probably one of the most abhorrent expressions and "reasons" I have ever heard. More on this later.<br /><br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I know there's a lot of argument about this but to my mind that <em>quite clearly</em> conditions gun ownership on belonging to a militia. At the very least it links the two, gun ownership being intended to protect a state's right to secede should the federal government become tyrannical. Not for fun or to compensate for a small penis nor even for personal protection.</div> <p>Well, this is where Constitutional interpretation becomes difficult. If there is a ruling on this, being that there are two versions (and the arugument that because of this the 2nd should be thrown out for procedural errors), there then would be a lot of problems and not just with guns. At that point, we would have to revisit every bit of contradictory language in our entire government to see if it would be valid in view of throwing out the Second Amendment due to ambiguous and confusing language. I just don't think it can be done.<br /><br /> How so, you ask? Well we had a decision by the Supreme Court that was based on a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists that supports the notion of "separation of church and state" yet that does not appear anywhere in the Constitution/Bill of Rights. So great importance was ascribed to Jefferson's "opinion" as it was interpreted. In this case then, the same equal weight given should be given to Jefferson's statement which can only be interpreted as being<br /> the correct one Since being ratified by 3/4 of the states and authenticated by Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson.<br /><br /> But first:<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">We use three documents to describe a "proper" government.<br /><br /> The Declaration of Indepedence, the foundation upon which the Constitution was constructed.<br /><br /> The Constitution, the "walls" that surrounds that proper government and the framework for the walls.<br /><br /> The Bill of Rights, that buttress the walls.<br /><br /> Three parts of a "whole" that tells us we have an unconstitutional government.<br /><br /> Some amendments are not part of the Bill of Rights and apply only to the Constitution.<br /><br /> The Bill of Rights was ratified to correct, clarify and fill omissions in the text of the Constitution.</div> <p>Now:<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">In the preamble there appear the words "we, the people", implying a "democratic" majority" of people established the Union when in fact it was formed by a democratic majority of states and what the states agreed to form was a Federal Constitutional Republic with a Constitution under the full control of only a majority of states.</div> <p>We are not a democracy.<br /><br /> Then:</p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><br /> "I have the highest veneration of those Gentleman, -- but, Sir, give me leave to demand, what right had they to say, We, the People? My political curiosity, exclusive of my anxious solicitude for the public welfare, leads me to ask who authorized them to speak the language of, We, the People, instead of We, the States? States are the characteristics, and the soul of the confederation. If the States be not the agents of this compact, it must be one of great consolidated National Government of the people of all the States." – Patrick Henry, 1788 Virginia debates, stated on June 4, 1788<br /> </div> <p> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><br /> "Had it said, We, the States, there would have been a federal intention in it. But, Sir, it is clear that a consolidation is intended." – Mr. Joseph Taylor during North Carolina debates stated July 24, 1788<br /><br /> The 10th Amendment corrected that implication, judged an "error" in the Constitution.<br /><br /> "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."</div> <p>So actually, it is not a Federal issue then, it should go to the States or to the people for a vote on how we handle guns. I am not sure we are ever going to do that though.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I don't really fancy your chances going up against that with a few AR-15s and pistols.</div> <p>Me neither. But then again, my hope is that by keeping my munitions; however small they be or however few in number, that the Federal government or whatever rogue entity might try to threaten the People's existence, they would think twice about going up against a possible 100 million people with small arms. It is almost silly to think about in those terms anyway.<br /><strong>Quote:</strong> </p> <div class="quote">The right is archaic and needs either revising (to give the states Apaches and ICBMs) or removing.</div> <p>In your NSHO, but I disagree. There is no evidence that suggests that fewer guns lowers the crime rate, rather to the <a href="http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/011613-640869-more-guns-means-less-crime.htm">contrary</a>.<br /><br /><img alt="" src="http://www.investors.com/image/WEBiss0117_640_345.jpg.cms" /><br /><br /> I searched for "fewer guns fewer murders" and saw the above. The facts do not seem to bear this out. Our murder rates have been in decline since 2007, despite a large number of individuals owning guns.<br /> </p> …[Message Truncated] <a href="ldisplay.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.20&return_msg=41226.18" class="message_full_view">View full message.</a></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.20&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.20"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_21"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_21"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 21:55</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Mizzy <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 07:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">21 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21">41226.21</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18#a41226_18" target="_self">41226.18</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Prescient observations. You sound a lot like my English cousin who lives in Ireland regarding guns.<br /><br /> I should think you a bit odd if you were extremely comfortable around guns. I feel a bit odd about them myself, actually. Respect I guess for what they can do, the consequences of misuse, deliberate or accidental.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.21&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.21"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_22"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_22"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 22:04</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Mizzy <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 07:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">22 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.22">41226.22</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18#a41226_19" target="_self">41226.19</a></div> <div class="message_body"> A lot of guys like to shoot at targets, clay pigeons; some of them like to hunt. Some are collectors, some actually do buy guns either because they think their wife doesn't love them or their cock is too small (thanks, Sigmund).<br /><br /> Some people have guns because they have to carry a lot of money and fear being robbed. Most jewelers here have guns to protect their stores. Some folks have been attacked in the past and bought the gun for protection in the future. I know personally of a lady who was accosted by two strange men in a public park who asked her to go off with them in the woods in a menacing manner, whereupon she pulled out her pistol and asked them which way they wanted her to go. They fled.<br /><br /> She didn't kill either one of them, didn't have to.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">the only argument I can come up with is "because at some point The owner may feel the need to kill someone else" which makes me deeply uncomfortable handing that person a weapon.</div> Natural argument from one who was likely conditioned to think that way. We have been conversely conditioned that owning a gun is our right as an American citizen as long as we follow the relevant laws and are not criminals. Do you think I actually feel the need to kill someone sometime in the future?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.22&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.22"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_23"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_23"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 23:27</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 02:14"></span></span> <span class="message_count">23 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.23">41226.23</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18#a41226_20" target="_self">41226.20</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'll struggle to reply to all your points, but out of interest where would the US be on that chart? <br /> <br /> I think the deaths to ownership ratio isn't really so descriptive. It is most definitely down to cultural reasons. <br /> <br /> I really believe that citizens of the US generally feel more threatened in every day situations so are more likely to use the guns they happen to possess, probably even more so around people of a non-white ethnic background. <br /> <br /> Whilst I realise this would be totally impossible due to the vast amount of guns in circulation, do you believe if gun ownership levels (and available guns) in the US were the same as in the UK there would be substantially less innocent people killed each year? <br /> <br /> To me it really is simple, the more access that there is to guns the more innocent people that die. The chart you posted may show there isn't a huge trend but ignore the rest of the world. The US is completely culturally different with regards to guns, if you removed all the guns, less people would die. Is this not a good thing? <br /> <br /> Do you believe innocent deaths, school shootings etc are a necessary evil if you want to exercise your right to bear arms? </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.23&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.23"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_24"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_24"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 03:06</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 08:04"></span></span> <span class="message_count">24 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.24">41226.24</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18#a41226_23" target="_self">41226.23</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I'll struggle to reply to all your points, but out of interest where would the US be on that chart?</div> <p>Right? How the article writer excluded that baffles the hell out of me. I mean, he could have used colours for clarity. <span class="emoticon e_confused" title=":-S"><span class="e__">:-S</span></span><br /><br /><strong>Quote:</strong> </p> <div class="quote">Whilst I realise this would be totally impossible due to the vast amount of guns in circulation, do you believe if gun ownership levels (and available guns) in the US were the same as in the UK there would be substantially less innocent people killed each year?</div> <p>I honestly don't know. I was under the impression that private citizens couldn't have guns there. I would wonder what the innocent killing rate is for people cleaning their guns and the dolt left it loaded and it kills someone or himself. There are hunting accidents of course, drive-by shootings where "background" people are killed, but of course that is done with what I would consider to be criminal possession. I suppose easily accidental deaths from mishandling, children or curious folks would certainly go down, but I'd suspect more killings are intentional with intentional, also criminal targets. Innocents get caught in the crossfire in some police shootings as well, but I don't know how common it is - likely not very.<br /><br /> I definitely see guns as a deterrent to crime in some areas. I really don't think a criminal is going to go into a neighborhood where it is known a percentage of homeowners have (or are suspected to have) a gun or guns for personal protection.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">The US is completely culturally different with regards to guns, if you removed all the guns, less people would die. Is this not a good thing?</div> <p>This is often what the "gun control" (control, meaning removal) zealots would have folks believe, but the facts as cited in the article and from other sources do not bear this out. The criminal element will still have and continue to get guns, possibly even from the police who would have rounded them up en masse during "buyback programs". They don't all get destroyed due to corruption or greed. I actually don't so much mind criminals killing each other rather than innocent people. When it spills over into bystanders it is definitely a problem.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Do you believe innocent deaths, school shootings etc are a necessary evil if you want to exercise your right to bear arms?</div> <p>Necessary evil? I think that is a bit of a straw man.<br /><br /> Interesting <a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html">timeline</a>. Note the number that did not occur in the U.S.<br /><br /> This is for shootings only, I have not looked at school and other innocent deaths via other means. I find it interesting to note that in several cases the shooters were reported to have been ostracised and/or teased. Not an excuse for it at all, just a fact mentioned in several cases. Speaking of which, several students her in the U.S. have commited suicide because of FaceBook tauntings.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">even more so around people of a non-white ethnic background.</div> <p>I see the media as tending toward sensationalising this because it sells. Interestingly, IIRC, most of our school shooters are almost exclusively white boys. Mass murderers tend to be white. White people be fucked up.<br /><br /> I looked up interesting statistics in the U.K.:<br /><br /> ~ 4/10 youth killings involve knives.<br /> ~ 6 people a week are stabbed in Britain<br /> ~ There are 60 non fatal knife crimes daily, 22,000 in a year (2012)<br /> ~ In killings, 39.5% involved knives<br /><br /> This <a href="http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html">link</a> supports my assertion that people kill via other means.<br /><br /> Take away guns, people kill with sharp instruments. Unfortunately, more fodder for the "people kill people" argument.<br /><br /> **Spelling<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 4 Oct 2014 13:43 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.24&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.24"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_25"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_25"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: JonCooper<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 05:00</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 13:33"></span></span> <span class="message_count">25 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.25">41226.25</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18#a41226_24" target="_self">41226.24</a></div> <div class="message_body"> FYI~ private citizens can have guns here, it's not easy and is heavily regulated, but certainly not impossible, I'd think the easiest to own would be a shotgun, I certainly know quite a few who have them, but I live in quite a rural area - it's really handguns that are hardest to own.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.25&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.25"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_26"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_26"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 13:33</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: JonCooper <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 17:43"></span></span> <span class="message_count">26 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.26">41226.26</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18#a41226_25" target="_self">41226.25</a></div> <div class="message_body"> So is it Ireland that cannot have them?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.26&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.26"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_27"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_27"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 13:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 13:45"></span></span> <span class="message_count">27 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.27">41226.27</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18#a41226_26" target="_self">41226.26</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'll continue this if folks want to, but I am not going to change anybody's mind to my way nor am to be swayed the other way.<br /><br /> I'd rather talk about beer. <span class="emoticon e_wink" title=";-)"><span class="e__">;-)</span></span> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.27&return_msg=41226.18" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.27"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41226.28" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>