Gun Laws - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.0&return_msg=41226.10"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21">21–30</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.171">171–177</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41226.10">Gun Laws</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41226_10_177_10"> <a name="a41226_10"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_10"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 14:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">10 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10">41226.10</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.8">41226.8</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Because it is one of our rights as citizens of the United States, for one. I do not consider rights to be something that should be given away.<br /><br /> The second reason, which will most probably be miscontrued, is because the military have guns, the police have guns and the criminals have guns. The Police and Military are there to protect The People Should such time arrive as either of the first two become like the thrid, who will protect The People?<br /><br /><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RVXx-NejsK8" style="height:360px;margin:0px auto;width:480px;"></iframe><br /><br /> Now, I don't see how Ice T's comment leaves Mike Moore "cold", although he does have to think about it for a bit. But that which was written in the Bill of Rights as the Secon Amendment then is no less valid today, perhaps more so. Police in some circumstances are not to be trusted 100%. Apparently there needs to be more evaluation done there as well. I could find any number of examples of law enforcement abuse, corruption, rape theft, racketeering, illeagal search and seizure, unwarranted traffic stops by just picking one state from the union. Is it to the level that guns need be in every home? No. But it could happen. I was a Boy Scout once and I watched the Lion King.<br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.10&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.10"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_11"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_11"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:18</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">11 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.11">41226.11</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_10" target="_self">41226.10</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Because it is one of our rights as citizens of the United States, for one. I do not consider rights to be something that should be given away.</div> I think this is the idea/view that I have difficultly with. It seems like an easy get out for why you should have guns.<br /><br /> Ignore that it's written in a document made a few hundred years ago, ignore that it's your "right".<br /><br /> I think you may have a slight point about a possible defence against corrupt Police, but realistically you're not going to shoot a cop.<br /><br /> It seems clear to me that access to guns creates fear and the need for more people to own guns. The more access there is, the easier it is for guns to get in the hands of criminals and the unstable.<br /><br /> If there was complete gun control then the criminals would find it much more difficult to get hold of guns, obviously not impossible, but much much harder.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.11&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.11"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_12"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_12"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:48</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:50"></span></span> <span class="message_count">12 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.12">41226.12</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_11" target="_self">41226.11</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Ignore that it's written in a document made a few hundred years ago, ignore that it's your "right".</div> <p>About 236 years or so, but I can't ignore either because history tends to repeat. It is just a prudent view to me rather than a necessary viewpoint if that makes sense to you.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">If there was complete gun control then the criminals would find it much more difficult to get hold of guns, obviously not impossible, but much much harder.</div> <p>It seems that would be a valid reason for total gun control, but it didn't work in Australia.<br /><br /> I hope I am never in a position that I have to choose between shooting a cop or not. But if I have done nothing wrong and fear for my life, it would be his that I would relieve him of. I cannot however currently imagine a scanario that would require it, but I still reserve the ability and right to protect myself. I am not sure a .22 would be a particularly effective weapon against a 9mm, .45 or a .40, unless I Aim small, Miss Small. <span class="emoticon e_wink" title=";-)"><span class="e__">;-)</span></span> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><b>Those who would give up <u><a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Essential" title="Essential">essential</a> <a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Liberty" title="Liberty">Liberty</a></u>, to purchase a little temporary <a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Safety" title="Safety">Safety</a>, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.</b> ~ Benjamin Franklin, from Wikiquotes.</div> <p><br /><br /> </p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 3 Oct 2014 15:52 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.12&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.12"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_13"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_13"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Monsoir (PILOTDAN)<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:52</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:52"></span></span> <span class="message_count">13 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.13">41226.13</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_12" target="_self">41226.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Problem is these aren't arguments - it's essentially the gun control version of "The Bible Says"</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.13&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.13"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_14"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_14"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 15:53</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Monsoir (PILOTDAN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 15:58"></span></span> <span class="message_count">14 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.14">41226.14</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_13" target="_self">41226.13</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Explain that.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.14&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.14"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_15"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_15"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Monsoir (PILOTDAN)<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 16:00</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 16:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">15 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.15">41226.15</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_14" target="_self">41226.14</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Well, Ant asked you to debate gun control away from the constitution and all you did was say "<span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">I can't ignore either because history tends to repeat" and posted a quote.<br /><br /> The quote itself is meaningless because we all give up liberty for safety by virtue of simply having government and laws.</span></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.15&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.15"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_16"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_16"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 16:20</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Monsoir (PILOTDAN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 19:15"></span></span> <span class="message_count">16 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.16">41226.16</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_15" target="_self">41226.15</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">The quote itself is meaningless because we all give up liberty for safety by virtue of simply having government and laws.</span></div> <p>I disagree.<br /><br /> I don't consider government, laws and liberty to be mutually exclusive terms.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"> <h5><span class="pos_abbr">Liberty n.</span><span class="pos_desc">noun</span></h5> <ol><li> <p>The condition of being <span style="color:#B22222;">free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.</span></p> </li> <li> <p>The condition of being free from <span style="color:#B22222;">oppressive</span> restriction or control by a government or other power.</p> </li> <li> <p>A <span style="color:#B22222;">right to engage in certain actions without control or interference by a government or other power.</span></p> <p><samp><span class="m_a_wrapper"><span class="m_a_trigger">the</span></span> <b>liberties</b> <span class="m_a_wrapper"><span class="m_a_trigger">protected</span></span> <span class="m_a_wrapper"><span class="m_a_trigger">by</span></span> <span class="m_a_wrapper"><span class="m_a_trigger">the</span></span> <span class="m_a_wrapper"><span class="m_a_trigger">Bill</span></span> <span class="m_a_wrapper"><span class="m_a_trigger">of</span></span> <span class="m_a_wrapper"><span class="m_a_trigger">Rights.</span></span></samp></p> </li> </ol></div> <br /><br /> I also would ask you to define what <u>you</u> mean by "gun control". I support gun <u>control</u> for private citizens, not gun <u>elimination</u> for private citizens. Huge diference. I won't comment on gun elimination because I do not support it.<br /><br /> Folks here can choose to own a gun or not. I choose to own one and have taken the appropriate steps to ensure it is used safely and legally. I do not hold nor do I have any immediate plans to get a Permit to Carry. I am allowed to carry a weapon openly, but this would make local law enforcement and other civilians nervous. You Tube has plenty of those "Open Carry" videos which I consider to be taunting police and a challenge. It is an irrational display of someone trying to prove a point of bust a policeman's balls.<br /><br /> Let me ask you this:<br /><br /> If I give up my gun(s) does that mean I no longer have the ability to kill?<br /><br /> But, I am not going to debate whether gun control is necessary because I believe it <u>is</u> necessary; I don't support gun elimination.<br /><br /> By gun control, you apparently mean gun elimination. Is part of the reason you think Americans should not own guns because you cannot? Or do you not understand why someone would want to own a gun? Have you ever owned, fired or handles a gun, rifle or other projectile delivering weapon? Not trying to get your goat, these are serious questions.<br /><br /> BTW, I did post answers away from the Constitution on why I feel it necessary to retain the right to own a gun or guns.<br /><br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 3 Oct 2014 16:23 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.16&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.16"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_17"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_17"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 17:05</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 18:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">17 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.17">41226.17</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_16" target="_self">41226.16</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I think Ant's question is: why should <em>that</em> in particular <em>be</em> a right.<br /><br /> The constitution is not set in stone nor is it a religious text. It's not <em>inherently correct</em> it is (or should be) a living document that is interpreted and revised by the supreme court and congress.<br /><br /> The second amendment says (this is the version ratified by the states, I realise the version passed by congress has commas in different places):<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.3999996185303px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.</span></div> <br /> I know there's a lot of argument about this but to my mind that <em>quite clearly</em> conditions gun ownership on belonging to a militia. At the very least it links the two, gun ownership being intended to protect a state's right to secede should the federal government become tyrannical. Not for fun or to compensate for a small penis nor even for personal protection.<br /><br /> And, to be fair, now that the federal government has aircraft carriers, fighter jets, apache helicopters, drones, guided missiles and ICBMs I don't really fancy your chances going up against that with a few AR-15s and pistols.<br /><br /> The right is archaic and needs either revising (to give the states Apaches and ICBMs) or removing.<br /><br /><strong><em>Howfuckingever...</em></strong><br /><br /> I, of course, realise that much of the territory which makes up your nation was won and protected with firearms. And that your country was established in a violent revolution against a tyrannical government which, had firearms not been widely available, would've been far less likely.<br /><br /> I understand that guns are hugely symbolically important in your culture and that is unlikely to change any time soon.<br /><br /> And the resentment caused by the sneering, snobbish way anti-gun people look down on pro-gun people probably does more for the pro-gun lobby than any of the constitutional or practical arguments.<br /><br /><em><strong>Howdoublefuckingever...</strong></em><br /><br /> To me (and I imagine many in other countries where guns laws are tighter) a gun is just a weapon for killing things, and I have no idea why you'd want to own such a thing , I find the idea quite abhorrent. Like if I wanted the right to stamp on puppies heads. Why? Because some men thought it'd be a good idea 200 years ago. Killing things is bad. Guns are for killing things. Why the <em>fuck</em> would I want one?<br /><br /> These differences are deeply ingrained in our cultures, we're so diverged that we're barely even talking about the same thing, really. Which makes discussions like this all but pointless.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 3 Oct 2014 17:06 by X3N0PH0N</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.17&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.17"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_18"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_18"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Mizzy<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 17:59</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 18:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">18 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18">41226.18</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_16" target="_self">41226.16</a></div> <div class="message_body"> iOS 8 safari just crashed on me again <span class="emoticon e_unsure" title=":-/"><span class="e__">:-/</span></span> 2nd attempt<br /> <br /> In the case of the U.S. the cats out of the bag already, criminalising gun ownership wouldn't work and would hand the criminals a huge advantage, and criminalise the rest who would refuse to give up their weapons, the best you can hope for is as you say reduction in ownership by properly imposing sensible controls on ownership including psych Evals regularly (every two years seems sensible to me).<br /> <br /> We did actually allow private gun ownership over here which was legislated away during the 80's after dunblaine etc. <br /> <br /> I have handled and fired weapons just pistols and shotguns, in the presence of my father at a gun range a long time ago. And a crossbow and longbow elsewhere, I cant say I miss them I always felt uncomfortable handling them, <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.18&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.18"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_19"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_19"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Mizzy<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 18:09</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Oct 2014 18:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">19 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.19">41226.19</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.10#a41226_16" target="_self">41226.16</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I would also like to know a reason for allowing gun ownership other than we always have, or because this document written a age ago says I can.<br /> <br /> I can think of quite a few perfectly good reasons not to own a gun, but precious few as a reason to own one, the only argument I can come up with is "because at some point The owner may feel the need to kill someone else" which makes me deeply uncomfortable handing that person a weapon.<br /> <br /> Given the trajectory of democratic capitalism, an envitable societal crash is going to happen, and competition for resources (food clothing personal liberty) may remove this choice from all of us < tongue in cheek>;<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 3 Oct 2014 18:11 by MIZZY</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.19&return_msg=41226.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.19"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41226.20" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>