PC Specialist - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.0&return_msg=40856.41"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.31">31–40</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41">41–50</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.51">51–60</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.61">61–66</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=40856.41">PC Specialist</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="40856_41_66_10"> <a name="a40856_41"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_41"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Matt<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:46</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:48"></span></span> <span class="message_count">41 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41">40856.41</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.37">40856.37</a></div> <div class="message_body"> But there are clues, you just have to look. They can't hand hold you all the way, and that's where the fear of change becomes a factor (and it's not bollocks. A lot of people, myself included, get very comfortable and refuse to adapt to change.) It's the same for Unity, if you don't look to see how it might work, it simply won't.<br /> <br /> Unfortunately for Microsoft they have been counters who are pushing for a sellable product ahead of completeness. I'm sure Metro will get better, the same way Unity is getting better. <br /> <br /> And Android as a UI is broken too. There are common UI guidelines, but It's generally inconsistent in a lot of ways and it changes far too often for its own good (and I'm typing this on my phone, which runs Android!)<br /> <br /> And moving things around will always be arbitrary, it can't possibly be done any other way.<br /> <br /> I think Microsoft (or at least the OS team) would live to restart Windows from scratch, but they'd essentially be throwing away 30 years of compatibility and they're not going to do that any time soon. Not even Linus is that brave enough to do that.<br /> <br /> And everyone eventually becomes a service. That's what happens when you're a company as big as Microsoft and reach critical mass. I would love to turn Beehive into a service, but I don't have the money to do it. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.41&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.41"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_42"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_42"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Matt<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:53</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 20:03"></span></span> <span class="message_count">42 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.42">40856.42</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.39">40856.39</a></div> <div class="message_body"> What I meant was that you'd wave good bye to your traditional desktop PC and your tablet would become said desktop/TV/kettle/toaster (okay, maybe not the last two) by adapting to its surrounds via a dock or environment detection and such like. Eventually everyone will carry their "PC" with them everywhere and plug it into (or better yet, simply lay it in proximity of) HID that change it into your required tool.<br /> <br /> And with the hardware, the OS will adapt too, much like adaptive design allows websites to change to work on desktop and mobile devices without compromising the functionality, but it will also adapt to control methods beyond the scope of websites.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.42&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.42"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_43"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_43"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 20:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 20:04"></span></span> <span class="message_count">43 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.43">40856.43</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_41" target="_self">40856.41</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'm not saying one can't learn how to use Windows 8, of course you can. I'm saying that <em>it's badly designed</em> which makes that <em>much harder than necessary</em>.<br /><br /> And I'm not saying that resistance to change doesn't exist, of course it does. I'm saying that's not the problem with Windows 8. It <em>is</em> different, yes, and yes some people will have a problem with that. But that is not an objective problem, the objective problem is that <em>it's badly designed</em>.<br /><br /> I dunno, you seem to be arguing that there's no such thing as bad design, just things being different. Like there are no objective criteria in design. Which is like if I did some really shitty, inefficient code and you said "that's really shitty inefficient code". And I said "no it's not, I'm just coding <em>differently</em>. You're afraid of <em>change</em>, man".<br /><br /> I don't think throwing away 30 years of compatibility is a problem (or at least 25 of those years).<em> </em>MS <em>could</em> start from scratch, and I'm pretty sure it'd be profitable for them to do so. But there's more money in services and they're putting everything into Azure and shit like that, that's the future for them. They don't <em>care</em> about the desktop any more and it <em>shows</em>. Win8 is their just rehashing the old code cos they know some people will still buy it. Plus another half-arsed sally into the tablet market of course.<br /><br /> Aaaand... regarding the Linux kernel, it's not really comparable. New paradigms are adopted all the time but this doesn't impinge on compatibility since you compile in what you want and ignore the rest. So it's possible to have the best of both worlds. Systemd is a good example of this - it offers clear advantages and benefits (cgroups foremost amongst them) - but if you don't want to use it and want to cling to some old BSD style init system for compatibility reasons then you can do exactly that and everything will still work fine.<br /><br /><div class="edit_text">EDITED: 7 Feb 2014 20:07 by X3N0PH0N</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.43&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.43"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_44"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_44"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 20:06</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 20:06"></span></span> <span class="message_count">44 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.44">40856.44</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_42" target="_self">40856.42</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah the 'internet of things' is a thing for sure. I don't think everyone will carry their PC around with them, though, just their data. But I might just be splitting hairs.<br /><br /> But different form factors, input methods and tasks will always needs different UIs. Maybe Canonical's solution will win out - a sort of CSS approach where the UI rejigs itself on different devices but is the same code underneath. Mayyybe. I suspect the KDE plasma approach makes more sense though - the same toolkit but a tailored interface for each device.<br /><br /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.44&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.44"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_45"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_45"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 20:11</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 20:12"></span></span> <span class="message_count">45 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.45">40856.45</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_42" target="_self">40856.42</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"> <b>Quote:</b></div> <div class="quote"> like adaptive design allows websites to change to work on desktop and mobile devices without compromising the functionality</div> <p> <br /> This is a side issue, and probably not a disagreement...<br /><br /> While adaptive design is <em>good</em> - it's much better to have it than to not have it - I think "without compromising the functionality" is going a bit far. I fucking <em>hate</em> using pretty much any mobile site. It's always a compromise for me. I use my tablet cos I'd rather browse whatever or check my emails <em>while in bed</em>. But it always feels a bit clunky and second-rate. I'd always rather be at my desktop.<br /><br /> </p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.45&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.45"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_46"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_46"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Matt<span class="message_time"> 8 Feb 2014 10:17</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 8 Feb 2014 18:18"></span></span> <span class="message_count">46 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.46">40856.46</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_43" target="_self">40856.43</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Bad design definitely exists, I'm one of the major creators of it.<br /><br /> I'm not saying Windows 8 isn't flawed, because that would be really silly. What I'm trying to say, or at least part of it, is if you get down to the nitty-gritty it's not that much more flawed than any previous generation of Windows is. If you ignore the controversy that is Metro (for the sake of this paragraph, not stop using it entirely) there are some hugely beneficial changes to Windows 8 that make all it's predecessors look both like simpletons and hideous over complications in comparison. Metro isn't fundamentally bad design, it's just different. Its the first iteration of something radically different to what we're used to and if that is bad design then so is every other unification attempt that currently exists, because they're all treading down the same path and all have the same or very similar issues.<br /><br /> Throwing away 30 years of compatibility is definitely a bad thing when all you've been doing for 30 years is marketing that your new OS will still run all your old programs*. I'm sure the Windows development team would love to rewrite it, but I'm also sure every time they suggest it the marketing department sweet talk the producers into saying no, leaving the developers with no choice but to go back and continue to iterate on top of the existing Windows code base.<br /><br /> Actually you're right, as far as kernels go Linux and Windows NT are not comparable. Linux is a monolithic kernel while Windows NT has long since been a hybrid modular kernel. The Linux kernel is user extendible, but with the exception of FUSE everything still runs in kernel space. NT has long adopted a modular hybrid kernel which allows modules to run in user space. And I know that Linus thinks this is bollocks, but the idea that NT is a monolithic kernel and full of cruft while Linux isn't is just completely wrong.<br /><br /> With regards to responsive design that does sacrifice functionality. That's responsive design done wrong. The whole point of it is to adjust your design and UI to make it usable on any device and to adapt to input methods available. Just like turning Beehive into a service, I too would love to remake Beehive and make it truly responsive, but nobody will pay me to do it and I can't afford to do it myself <span class="emoticon e_sad" title=":("><span class="e__">:(</span></span><br /><br /> * Except if you're running 64bit Windows, which won't run 16bit software.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.46&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.46"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_47"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_47"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 8 Feb 2014 19:02</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 8 Feb 2014 19:03"></span></span> <span class="message_count">47 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.47">40856.47</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_46" target="_self">40856.46</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I think we'll just have to agree to disagree over Windows 8 <span class="emoticon e_hug" title="(hug)"><span class="e__">(hug)</span></span><br /><br /> The compatibility thing... I think they could do it. So few people actually use 30 year old software and I would imagine most users who'd be interested in an upgrade probably run generally recent software anyway. WinXP/7/8 still exist for those who really want to run super old shit. Apple did it, after all (albeit at a time when they had virtually no users anyway... ).<br /><br /> But yeah, that's a side issue. They're clearly <em>not</em> going to do that, so it's moot.<br /><br /> As to whether Windows is truly hybrid and whether that really means anything any more... I'm not going to touch that argument <span class="emoticon e_pipe" title=":Y"><span class="e__">:Y</span></span> (There's always the HURD though <span class="emoticon e_dance" title="(dance)"><span class="e__">(dance)</span></span> ).<br /><br /> Responsive design... my point is that (for me at least) touch is just inherently <em>worse</em> (no tooltips, clumsy operation, no left/middle/right click distinction (aside from tedious long presses), literally obscuring what you're trying to tap, clumsy text selection/operations etc. (and if it comes time to enter text I tend to give up and move to desktop)) and no amount of responsive design can make up for that. Mobile is a compromise for me; it's <em>worse</em>, but I can do it in bed (yj), so I pay the price.<br /><br /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.47&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.47"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_48"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_48"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)<span class="message_time"> 8 Feb 2014 20:10</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 8 Feb 2014 20:11"></span></span> <span class="message_count">48 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.48">40856.48</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_46" target="_self">40856.46</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"> <b>quote:</b> <a href="messages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.46">Matt</a></div> <div class="quote"> If you ignore the controversy that is Metro (for the sake of this paragraph, not stop using it entirely) there are some hugely beneficial changes to Windows 8 that make all it's predecessors look both like simpletons and hideous over complications in comparison.</div> <p> IMO the cackness of the UI extends beyond Metro into the desktop. But UI aside (because it's a subjective thing and one man's princess is another's pig) what are the "hugely beneficial changes" that you're thinking of that reduce the previous iterations "simpletons and hideous over complications"?</p> <p> I've read of speed improvements during boot, but since I boot rarely that's not a big issue. And for my uses (office ect) the speed bottleneck is usually between my ears.</p> <div class="quotetext" style="font-size:13px;"> <b>quote:</b> <a href="messages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.46">Matt</a></div> <div class="quote"> Metro isn't fundamentally bad design, it's just different. Its the first iteration of something radically different to what we're used to and if that is bad design then so is every other unification attempt that currently exists, because they're all treading down the same path and all have the same or very similar issues.</div> <p> Like I said before, I do hope that the problems (IMO and others') of the W8 paradigm bring some halt to convergence. Convergence makes some sense in unifying the user experience between platforms, and reducing development costs, but platform differences should still be recognised, and there are points at which unification makes no sense.</p> <div class="quotetext" style="font-size:13px;"> <b>quote:</b> <a href="messages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.46">Matt</a></div> <div class="quote"> I'm sure the Windows development team would love to rewrite it, but I'm also sure every time they suggest it the marketing department sweet talk the producers into saying no, leaving the developers with no choice but to go back and continue to iterate on top of the existing Windows code base.</div> <div> You may have seen <a href="http://rkrants.blogspot.ch/2013/05/a-microsoft-employees-rant-i-contribute.html">this</a>, which suggests that you are correct in your assumption. </div> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 8 Feb 2014 20:12 by MR_BASTARD</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.48&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.48"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_49"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_49"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Matt<span class="message_time"> 8 Feb 2014 20:44</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 8 Feb 2014 22:15"></span></span> <span class="message_count">49 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.49">40856.49</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_48" target="_self">40856.48</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Its not just the boot speed, it generally feels snappier over all, but that could easily be a placebo too.<br /> <br /> But, things I do like are:<br /> <br /> My number one is definitely the better multi-monitor support. Each monitor now has its own taskbar and its own start button and each monitor can also have separate desktop wallpapers. Running app icons move between task bars when you move them between monitors too. If you've ever used multimon, its just like that but without the useless additions.<br /> <br /> Windows 8.1 adds to the above by allowing the start screen to have your desktop wallpaper as the background to the start screen and to better organise the Start Screen into named groups, which definitely helps make things less jarring.<br /> <br /> Much improved Windows Explorer with ribbon bar and improved file copy / move dialog which displays only one dialog for all copy processes and allows you to pause and resume the action. Useful for being able to pause a long copy process to allow another to finish sooner. Libraries are pretty much gone. Not removed completely, but much less emphasis on them.<br /> <br /> The reset tool which rolls Windows back to a clean slate without having to format and reinstall is a nice touch. Good for troublesome relatives and neighbours that keep breaking their PC by installing things they shouldn't.<br /> <br /> And for the more technical amongst us, Windows 8 also supports storage spaces which allows you to manage all drives, internal and external as one big volume.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.49&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.49"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_50"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_50"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time"> 8 Feb 2014 21:29</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 8 Feb 2014 21:34"></span></span> <span class="message_count">50 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.50">40856.50</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41#a40856_47" target="_self">40856.47</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Could a Future Windows just include an old version as a virtual machine for legacy software? I remember the early days of OSX and having to drop into "Classic" or something to run some software. <br /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.50&return_msg=40856.41" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.50"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="40856.51" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>