PC Specialist - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.0&return_msg=40856.35"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.31">31–40</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41">41–50</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.61">61–66</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=40856.35">PC Specialist</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="40856_35_66_10"> <a name="a40856_35"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_35"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: koswix<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:13</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: koswix <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:13"></span></span> <span class="message_count">35 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.35">40856.35</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.33">40856.33</a></div> <div class="message_body"> (also I actually really want metro/start screen to be good and useful, I think it'd be great as a way of viewing data feeds like emails and website updates, weather etc. As a launching point for other apps. But from what I've seen so far with it there's far too many compromises on usability to make it truly great) </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.35&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.35"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_36"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_36"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: koswix<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:15</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Monsoir (PILOTDAN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:47"></span></span> <span class="message_count">36 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.36">40856.36</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.26">40856.26</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Meant to say thanks earlier, that sorted it. Windows update had been proudly proclaiming that everything's up to date (seems extremely unlikely for a fresh install!), probably because of the wifi issues. Hopefully I can work out what's going on there tomorrow. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.36&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.36"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_37"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_37"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:28</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:31"></span></span> <span class="message_count">37 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.37">40856.37</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.34">40856.34</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Discoverability is about being given clues, not about things being possible/impossible to find. It's about things having a coherent and consistent internal logic such that one can make inferences from context and symbology (which is the semiotic part).<br /><br /> You're bringing up this 'fear of change' argument again which is just bollocks. I never liked the task bar/start menu/systray metaphor and <em>welcome</em> a new approach. I don't use Windows any more (well, very rarely), I mainly use Gnome Shell or i3, depending on what I'm doing and neither bears any resemblance at all to the Windows desktop paradigm.<br /><br /> So, no, it's not fear of change.<br /><br /> I actually rather like Metro. It's unfinished and clunky but it's a good idea. It works fine on a tablet (fine, but still inferior to iOS, Android or Sailfish). It would've been nice if they'd had the balls to finish it and make it cohesive. I'm not convinced it could be made to work well on a desktop but I'd be interested to see them at least try.<br /><br /> Instead, you also get this half-arsed throw back to the previous Windows, with bits missing and things arbitrarily moved around.<br /><br /> And MS *know* neither UI really works otherwise they wouldn't've put two fucking entirely different UIs in there.<br /><br /><div class="quotetext"> <b>Quote:</b></div> <div class="quote"> and the rest is a fine tuned Windows 7 anyway</div> <p> <br /> Yeah. It's an old kernel on a *very* old, slow filesyetem. They're milking very last drop out of it they can, which makes sense. But it's just... too archaic these days. When you look at ZFS, Btrfs, Systemd, Docker and stuff like that, windows just looks like the ancient, creaky dinosaur it really is.<br /><br /> And I think MS knows this. They know that if they want to make a modern desktop OS they're going to have to start from scratch. Which isn't worth it, which is why they're becoming a services company like IBM.</p> <div class="quotetext"> <b>Quote:</b></div> <div class="quote"> the latest versions of Ubuntu are still a heap of shit compared to what they used to be like. They're getting better</div> <br /> I don't see how that makes any sense.<br /><br /> But yeah, I don't personally like Unity nor Ubuntu. But Unity is certainly usable, discoverable and has clear, consistent semiotics.<br /><br /> And yeah, Unity was a radical change ... and I reitterate that change isn't the point. Change is good. So long as it's change for the better.<br /><p> <br /> </p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.37&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.37"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_38"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_38"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Matt<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:31</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: koswix <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:40"></span></span> <span class="message_count">38 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.38">40856.38</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.33">40856.33</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Lots of software do a single options multiple ways, including Beehive! That approach is hardly new, Windows has been doing this for decades, right back to Windows 3. Not sure why this is a bad thing, you're not forced to use one inefficient way, rather the choice let's you discover your preferred way and keep using it.<br /> <br /> The rationale is the unification of platforms with a common UI on all devices you use. As we move away from the traditional desktop PC and mote towards mobile and portable devices and devices which transform from portable into desktop (this is where we're headed, like it or not), unification in UI is going to be one of the most important things to get right. Apple and Ubuntu are doing the same thing, albeit slower than Microsoft. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.38&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.38"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_39"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_39"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:42</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:46"></span></span> <span class="message_count">39 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.39">40856.39</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.35#a40856_38" target="_self">40856.38</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Convergence is kinda bullshit. The same UI cannot service a 24 inch display using a keyboard and mouse and a 5" phone display using touch. Partly because of the modes of interaction but far more importantly <em>because one does not engage in anything like the same tasks on both devices</em>.<br /><br /> Sure, there's a (large) proportion of users who will stop using desktops because tablets and phones do everything they need (watch videos, email, facebook, twitter etc.). But anyone who <em>creates</em> anything (coders, designers, artists, musicians, video editors, writers, officey people) are going to need a desktop PC with a desktop OS for the foreseeable future.<br /><br /> A mobile OS on a desktop PC is serving <em>nobody</em> since the only people who would've used it have all switched over to phones and tablets anyway.<br /><br /> The desktop market, even after all the light users abandon it is still <em>huge</em>. There are a lot of people who need a production machine and a production shell.<br /><br /> And yes, a few companies are chasing convergence. And they're largely failing - iOS market share is shrinking, Ubuntu touch failed as both a community project and a commercial offering and windows 8 is getting nowhere fast on tablets/phones.<br /><br /> The ones that are succeeding (in their particular contexts/niches/'markets') are the ones which make a clear distinction between mobile and desktop and reject convergence - Android and ChromeOS, FirefoxOS, Sailfish, KDE with plasma etc.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 7 Feb 2014 19:43 by X3N0PH0N</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.39&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.39"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_40"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_40"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: koswix<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:46"></span></span> <span class="message_count">40 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.40">40856.40</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.35#a40856_38" target="_self">40856.38</a></div> <div class="message_body"> It's not single options multiple ways (that's fine), it's related options being in different places for no reason. (see set as lock screen/set as desktop image) </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.40&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.40"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_41"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_41"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Matt<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:46</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 19:48"></span></span> <span class="message_count">41 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.41">40856.41</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.35#a40856_37" target="_self">40856.37</a></div> <div class="message_body"> But there are clues, you just have to look. They can't hand hold you all the way, and that's where the fear of change becomes a factor (and it's not bollocks. A lot of people, myself included, get very comfortable and refuse to adapt to change.) It's the same for Unity, if you don't look to see how it might work, it simply won't.<br /> <br /> Unfortunately for Microsoft they have been counters who are pushing for a sellable product ahead of completeness. I'm sure Metro will get better, the same way Unity is getting better. <br /> <br /> And Android as a UI is broken too. There are common UI guidelines, but It's generally inconsistent in a lot of ways and it changes far too often for its own good (and I'm typing this on my phone, which runs Android!)<br /> <br /> And moving things around will always be arbitrary, it can't possibly be done any other way.<br /> <br /> I think Microsoft (or at least the OS team) would live to restart Windows from scratch, but they'd essentially be throwing away 30 years of compatibility and they're not going to do that any time soon. Not even Linus is that brave enough to do that.<br /> <br /> And everyone eventually becomes a service. That's what happens when you're a company as big as Microsoft and reach critical mass. I would love to turn Beehive into a service, but I don't have the money to do it. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.41&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.41"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_42"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_42"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Matt<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 19:53</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 20:03"></span></span> <span class="message_count">42 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.42">40856.42</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.35#a40856_39" target="_self">40856.39</a></div> <div class="message_body"> What I meant was that you'd wave good bye to your traditional desktop PC and your tablet would become said desktop/TV/kettle/toaster (okay, maybe not the last two) by adapting to its surrounds via a dock or environment detection and such like. Eventually everyone will carry their "PC" with them everywhere and plug it into (or better yet, simply lay it in proximity of) HID that change it into your required tool.<br /> <br /> And with the hardware, the OS will adapt too, much like adaptive design allows websites to change to work on desktop and mobile devices without compromising the functionality, but it will also adapt to control methods beyond the scope of websites.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.42&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.42"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_43"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_43"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 20:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 20:04"></span></span> <span class="message_count">43 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.43">40856.43</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.35#a40856_41" target="_self">40856.41</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'm not saying one can't learn how to use Windows 8, of course you can. I'm saying that <em>it's badly designed</em> which makes that <em>much harder than necessary</em>.<br /><br /> And I'm not saying that resistance to change doesn't exist, of course it does. I'm saying that's not the problem with Windows 8. It <em>is</em> different, yes, and yes some people will have a problem with that. But that is not an objective problem, the objective problem is that <em>it's badly designed</em>.<br /><br /> I dunno, you seem to be arguing that there's no such thing as bad design, just things being different. Like there are no objective criteria in design. Which is like if I did some really shitty, inefficient code and you said "that's really shitty inefficient code". And I said "no it's not, I'm just coding <em>differently</em>. You're afraid of <em>change</em>, man".<br /><br /> I don't think throwing away 30 years of compatibility is a problem (or at least 25 of those years).<em> </em>MS <em>could</em> start from scratch, and I'm pretty sure it'd be profitable for them to do so. But there's more money in services and they're putting everything into Azure and shit like that, that's the future for them. They don't <em>care</em> about the desktop any more and it <em>shows</em>. Win8 is their just rehashing the old code cos they know some people will still buy it. Plus another half-arsed sally into the tablet market of course.<br /><br /> Aaaand... regarding the Linux kernel, it's not really comparable. New paradigms are adopted all the time but this doesn't impinge on compatibility since you compile in what you want and ignore the rest. So it's possible to have the best of both worlds. Systemd is a good example of this - it offers clear advantages and benefits (cgroups foremost amongst them) - but if you don't want to use it and want to cling to some old BSD style init system for compatibility reasons then you can do exactly that and everything will still work fine.<br /><br /><div class="edit_text">EDITED: 7 Feb 2014 20:07 by X3N0PH0N</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.43&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.43"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40856_44"></a><div class="message" id="message_40856_44"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 7 Feb 2014 20:06</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Matt <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 7 Feb 2014 20:06"></span></span> <span class="message_count">44 of 66</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.44">40856.44</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40856.35#a40856_42" target="_self">40856.42</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah the 'internet of things' is a thing for sure. I don't think everyone will carry their PC around with them, though, just their data. But I might just be splitting hairs.<br /><br /> But different form factors, input methods and tasks will always needs different UIs. Maybe Canonical's solution will win out - a sort of CSS approach where the UI rejigs itself on different devices but is the same code underneath. Mayyybe. I suspect the KDE plasma approach makes more sense though - the same toolkit but a tailored interface for each device.<br /><br /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40856.44&return_msg=40856.35" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40856.44"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="40856.45" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>