proper programming - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.0&return_msg=34140.1"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.11">11–17</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=34140.1">proper programming</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="34140_1_17_10"> <a name="a34140_1"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_1"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">30 Mar 2008 17:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">1 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1">34140.1</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I want to learn myself it. I have some questions:<br /> <br /> Should I learn C++ or C#? I've narrowed it down to those two after plenty of consideration. C++ is obviously more established but (my impression from reading around is that) C# is better in use because it's been designed from the ground up rather than grown organically over 20-whatever years, and is therefore more suited to present-day uses. Is that perception roughly right?<br /> <br /> In which case it would seem to be sensible to go for C#?<br /> <br /> Other than confirmation/information about the above, I'm looking for an IDE. I do not like the MS ones whether it be those cut-down ones I forget the name of or the full Visual Studio. I've tried it several times and just don't get on with it. I think it's like (for me) trying to learn html via dreamweaver - too much is hidden and so I learn nothing.<br /> <br /> I need a simpler environment, one where I have to type things myself so I know what's going on. One that doesn't do <i>too much</i> for me but does do the rigth things for me.<br /> <br /> I realise Visual Studio might well be the <i>best</i> IDE, when you know the language and understand what it's doing for you. But it's not what I'm looking for currently, so what's good?<br /> <br /> Oh, another consideration for both points... I always liked Flash/actionscript because it was very forgiving - how something was coded always mattered less than the ideas. I think this will continue to be the case with the stuff I want to make. It might be quite badly coded (obviously not intentionally, I just mean that perfect code is not my primary concern) but hopefully the ideas and the result will make up for that. So I want something flexible/robust enough to work well with that approach. Something where I can cobble my ideas together <i>quickly</i> to see how they work/look and then worry about coding them well if they work like they did in my head. Something where I can 'sketch' (i.e.: code in that way).<br /> <br /> (I realise Processing.org is intended to be exactly that but it's just lacking in the meaty stuff I want. It basically suffers from being Java. I don't get on with Java).<br /> <br /> Thanks in advance for any advice. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.1&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.1"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_2"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_2"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)<span class="message_time">30 Mar 2008 18:31</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 30 Mar 2008 18:37"></span></span> <span class="message_count">2 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.2">34140.2</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_1" target="_self">34140.1</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b><a href="messages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1">some owls (X3N0PH0N)</a></div><div class="quote">Should I learn C++ or C#?</div><br /> <br /> Neither. Learn VB and CF. You can thank me later. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.2&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.2"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_3"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_3"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: af (CAER)<span class="message_time">30 Mar 2008 23:07</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Mar 2008 11:11"></span></span> <span class="message_count">3 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.3">34140.3</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_2" target="_self">34140.2</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Nobody will thank you for recommending VB. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.3&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.3"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_4"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_4"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)<span class="message_time">31 Mar 2008 09:48</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Mar 2008 20:59"></span></span> <span class="message_count">4 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.4">34140.4</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_1" target="_self">34140.1</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I (predictably) recommend C#. I've used at least 25 different programming languages in my career, and C# is easily the best. The latest version (3.0 aka 2008) is awesome. Also, you can use it to code Windows apps, web apps, web services, Silverlight 2.0 stuff, so it's a learn-once, use-many language.<br /> <br /> C++ is very, very unforgiving, difficult and counter-intuitive, and you generally need to write 50 lines of code before you start writing your code.<br /> <br /> I use Visual Studio 2008 and get on really well with it, so I can't suggest an alternative. It's only real competitor is SharpDevelop, which is essentially an open-source copy of Visual Studio, so I'd question whether you'd like it any better. You could always try it. Failing that, I use UltraEdit for general purpose editing, which does C# syntax highlighting, or you could get the UEStudio version which will also integrate with the compiler etc.<br /> <br /> I'd imagine you'd be interested in Silverlight 2.0, which is sort of like Flex but you code it in C#, in which case you might want to play with <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/expression/products/download.aspx?key=blend2dot5">the Expression Blend 2.5 preview</a>, which lets you do the Flash-style design-y and animate-y stuff and keep the actual code separate. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.4&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.4"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_5"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_5"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)<span class="message_time">31 Mar 2008 11:11</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: af (CAER) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Mar 2008 17:00"></span></span> <span class="message_count">5 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.5">34140.5</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_3" target="_self">34140.3</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Or CF for that matter. Except Peter. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.5&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.5"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_6"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_6"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">31 Mar 2008 11:36</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Mar 2008 17:52"></span></span> <span class="message_count">6 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.6">34140.6</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_5" target="_self">34140.5</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Why would I thank you for recommending an application server to someone wanting to do meaty graphical stuff?<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 31 Mar 2008 11:37 by BOUGHTONP</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.6&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.6"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_7"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_7"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)<span class="message_time">31 Mar 2008 12:05</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Mar 2008 12:14"></span></span> <span class="message_count">7 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.7">34140.7</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_6" target="_self">34140.6</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Because as a CF developer you should be grateful for any tiny little crumbs you get. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.7&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.7"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_8"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_8"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Rowan<span class="message_time">31 Mar 2008 12:35</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Mar 2008 20:59"></span></span> <span class="message_count">8 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.8">34140.8</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_1" target="_self">34140.1</a></div> <div class="message_body"> C#, because as Rendle says C++ is the devil's work. Seriously, though, just use Visual Studio, you big freak. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.8&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.8"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_9"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_9"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">31 Mar 2008 21:03</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">9 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.9">34140.9</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <p>Thank you for your informations. I shall think on all this.</p> <p> </p> <p>Is Mono shit?</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.9&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.9"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a34140_10"></a><div class="message" id="message_34140_10"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: 99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)<span class="message_time">31 Mar 2008 21:09</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Mar 2008 21:44"></span></span> <span class="message_count">10 of 17</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.10">34140.10</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=34140.1#a34140_9" target="_self">34140.9</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <p>Of course stereo's betterer, but if you want to hear Caruso sing you have to put up with mono.</p> <p> </p> <p>Sorry, them's the breaks <span class="emoticon e_crying" title=":(("><span class="e__">:((</span></span></p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=34140.10&return_msg=34140.1" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="34140.10"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="34140.11" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>