no one to vote for - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.0&return_msg=32303.33"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.31">31–40</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.41">41–50</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.51">51–58</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=32303.33">no one to vote for</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="32303_33_58_10"> <a name="a32303_33"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_33"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 13:14</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">33 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.33">32303.33</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Crap. So much I want to say to this thread, but not sure where to start. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.33&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.33"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_34"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_34"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 13:37</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 13:38"></span></span> <span class="message_count">34 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.34">32303.34</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.22">32303.22</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Let's try with this:<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">It's how to get there that's the problem.</div><br /> <br /> Exactly so. Everything you wish to achieve is (largely) irrelevant without at least a tentative path to the goal. It doesn't matter how well-intentioned your propositions, if you cannot say "and to attempt to achieve this goal Z, we must start by doing X, which should lead to Y and, finally, Z" then, it's just like saying 1. steal underpants, 2., 3. profit!<br /> <br /> Pragmatism: One accepts the world is the way it is right now, one can recognise it is imperfect and that billions of people could benefit from major changes in the way things work, but that if one wishes to make any real difference, one must find a point of leverage - a fulcrum - get behind it and push. But also be careful what the other end of the lever is pushing, that the effects of one's efforts will not be counter-productive and that one is also pushing against the right object; one which stands a chance of moving with the potential wielded, that one is not swimming against the tide. One might be completely right and in possession of the "full facts" but it will do no good in certain situations. One recognises that until any possible future stage when pan-human education levels have reached a significantly higher average than the present (a second enlightenment perhaps, but vaguely utopian and distant) then thing will tend to get done only as a result of violence or populism - carrot or stick.<br /> <br /> This is by no means a definition of pragmatism, but it roughly but I would say one who fulfils those qualities (or at least a good number of them) would be pragmatic and, frustrating as it is (since I'm a born idealist), pragmatism is absolutely and utterly essential in making change happen. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.34&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.34"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_35"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_35"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 13:56</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: spinning_plates <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 13:59"></span></span> <span class="message_count">35 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.35">32303.35</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.33#a32303_34" target="_self">32303.34</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I disagree. We just phrase things differently.<br /> <br /> I'm not so big on rationality. There's only so far it can go.<br /> <br /> Nontheless, my aim is the removal of conditioning and my tentative path is to do so via culture. Culture does the conditioning so culture can do the unconditioning. We just need a shitlot of the right sort of culture making, that's all.<br /> <br /> Case in point: you see the Enlightenment as a good thing. I see it as.. progressive in some ways but hugely retrograde in other, quite damaging ways.<br /> <br /> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">pan-human education levels have reached a significantly higher average than the present</div><br /> <br /> It's my view that that will never happen under the present system, no matter how much lever pushing any number of people do. The current system is set up so as not to allow that to happen so if it's going to happen it will be via routes outside of any system of levers and pullies currently in existence.<br /> <br /> Regardless, I think the start of anything has to be understanding, not facts and ideas - they just lead to purposeful uselessness (such as party politics). I'll use the Paris Commune of 1871 as the sort of thing I mean. There was no plan/direction to it, to begin with, it just arose because (there was an opportunity and) people understood their situations. It ended in a strategic mistake but from everything I've read it seems it would've been sustainable. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.35&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.35"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_36"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_36"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 13:58</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 23:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">36 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.36">32303.36</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.24">32303.24</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">I don't buy that that can be repaired by markets and that these middle class fucks buying free trade chocolate and feeling good about themselves because they believe they're <takes a deep breath, continues><br /> <br /> To me, that sort of pragmatism is indistinguishable from evil.</div><br /> <br /> I don't believe that the major problems that plague our species and planet today can be solved by markets or anything we really see floating to the surface in the current system, but again, pragmatism says "to change the current system, we must show people a better alternative, because most people are sheep and either need to be shown the greener grass to graze on or forced into the pen by the yap of the dog."<br /> <br /> In a personal case, I'm (generally) an egalitarian, a pacifist and liberal, so I'm not expecting to be in the mood to carpet bomb whole populations for the next couple of hundred years at least. Using violence to try and "improve" people's lives almost seems like a paradox to me anyway and would undermine any progress that might be made, so that leaves the carrot. This genuinely is the most difficult part of getting any chance rolling - the pitch. You have to sell your idea to the masses and it's really then a question of how much you will bend, distort and break the truth to make the sell. Bugger people about too much and you walk away with nothing or, worse, a violent uprising, where peaceful progress could have flourished.<br /> <br /> What is required are bright "young" leaders to begin organising real, new, grass-roots political parties. Parties that are unassuming. Parties that do not say "we are on the left" or "we are on the right", especially when they're not. Parties which instead as "what is the problem" and "what can we do to fix it". Parties who aren't afraid to do a bit of house-cleaning or tell the public, as gracefully as possible of course, that they are wrong, when they need to hear it. People who come from the kind of perspective you seem to hold and to which I would broadly assign myself too - people wanting improvement, but not seeing an opportunity for it, losing any faith they may have had in democracy (faith ought not to be required, for it should be possible to see it in action), surely people full of ideas, but who more often than not, believe their ideas will never be listened to.<br /> <br /> There are so many of them/us/whatever out there that they hold the real power in western democracies right now and their power will only increase as successive generations feel more alienated from the people who lead them.<br /> <br /> The important thing is to try and establish this kind of movement before it is forced upon us. Revolution and all that might be a bit of a lark, in theory, but in practice it's generally best avoided and again, pragmatically, I think the present situation doesn't call for revolution, but swift and directed evolution. The power is there for the grabbing, the issue is how to show people that they can Take The Power Back in a way they understand. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.36&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.36"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_37"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_37"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 14:01</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 16:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">37 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.37">32303.37</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.26">32303.26</a></div> <div class="message_body"> As long as there is humanity, there will be conditioning, to a lesser or greater extent, when it's a big problem it's when it's done systematically on a state- or planet-wide basis. Being condition to certain aspects of existence may not be a bad thing, but it's important, if possible, to realise that we are so conditioned, so as to be able to avoid automatically making certain decisions when it would be foolish. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.37&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.37"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_38"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_38"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 14:07</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 23:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">38 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.38">32303.38</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.28">32303.28</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">Having said that, I think it should be realised that the current system isn't sustainable.</div><br /> <br /> Certain parts of it are, but overall, the policy of the rich exploit the poor is not necessarily unsustainable, it depends on how well the rich are able to continue to covertly or overtly manipulate the other "players". To be fair, I'm sure with the meteoric rise of China and India, not to mention other other areas that, not many decades ago were seen as "3rd World" (hell, still are by some, but that's another story) the rich will find (are finding) it increasingly difficult to maintain their stranglehold. Again, this mostly concerns me because no faction will be (is) keen to co-operate if it means potentially accepting compromises that their citizens might view as concessions or acceptance of equality (let alone inferiority!). If that is the case, then the only eventual outcome, due at some point during this century and, more likely than not the nearer end, is terrible wars, on a scale to make Iraq look like a walk in the park. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.38&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.38"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_39"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_39"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 14:08</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 16:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">39 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.39">32303.39</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.29">32303.29</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Certainly a possibility, definitely not an inevitability. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.39&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.39"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_40"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_40"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 14:09</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 23:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">40 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.40">32303.40</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.32">32303.32</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">The middle class is expanding such that there won't be anyone else soon.</div><br /> <br /> I'm pretty sure I can almost agree, but I think that's exaggeration, really. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.40&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.40"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_41"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_41"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: spinning_plates<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 14:10</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 23:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">41 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.41">32303.41</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.32">32303.32</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext" id="quote"><b>quote: </b></div><div class="quote">slowly moving in the right-ish direction</div><br /> <br /> Right-ish direction? Care to clarify, I could almost equally believe you meant to the right of the political spectrum or the "correct" way. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.41&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.41"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a32303_42"></a><div class="message" id="message_32303_42"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: funky (ISA)<span class="message_time">27 Apr 2007 18:53</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 27 Apr 2007 23:19"></span></span> <span class="message_count">42 of 58</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.42">32303.42</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=32303.1">32303.1</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Get yourself on the ballot, fool, it's the only way to SAVE YOUR CUNTRY! </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=32303.42&return_msg=32303.33" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="32303.42"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="32303.43" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>