GeneralThe web doesn't exist :O

 

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  koswix     
43054.9 In reply to 43054.5 
Yeah. The upside of that is that all the weird stuff I used to get lost in on personal websites is now on Youtube. The little channels with 100 followers who do nothing but review car park lifts (actual channel I found, it's great).

Video and podcasts are where the interesting stuff is now. And I *like* those. But I want explorable, text-based places too.

And yeah, tech instructions being video-only is an absolute fucking blight. Totally agree.

(replied to wrong person. I suck at old web)
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.10 In reply to 43054.9 
I hate podcasts, not that I've listened to many. I think I hate the idea of them, I much prefer reading (ok, skimming) and looking at pictures. I mainly use youtube to acquire musics. What I hate most of all is how all websites are CMS, and mostly wordpress. They're really fucking boring. Nobody can code a website anymore, it's all these dumb and highly insecure CMS plugins and addons that are an upgrade nightmare. Don't even get me started on influencers, kill them all.
“A man with nicotine, protein, caffeine, and creatine coursing through his veins is an unstoppable force.”
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)     
43054.11 In reply to 43054.10 
Yeah I hate all the piss boring CMS websites. Wordpress and Drupal etc. were great in terms of democratising the web, but an absolute pain in the arse to work with. And facilitated the corporate homogenisation of web aesthetics and functions.

And we *really* took a wrong turn databasing everything. A blog site does not need to dynamically create the same fucking page for every user. We realised static generation was a good idea wayyyy too late.

I do love me a podcast though. Perfect for when I'm playing games. 
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.12 In reply to 43054.11 
"but an absolute pain in the arse to work with".

I've put together a couple of "shit" websites as I think of them, because that's what people wanted. That's crap template things that took zero thought. More recently, only a couple of years ago, I took over a Wordpress site that somebody else had built, and reworked it because the users were complaining. I know nothing about website design, but I have a long background in programming, mainly IBM and systems programming, so I thought 'how hard can it be?'

I know why I found/find it a bit of a nightmare. If this isn't taking the thread too far off track I'd love to know what you mean.

He May Be Your Dog But He's Wearing My Collar

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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)     
43054.13 In reply to 43054.12 
In three words -- too much code.
“A man with nicotine, protein, caffeine, and creatine coursing through his veins is an unstoppable force.”
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)     
43054.14 In reply to 43054.13 
Well, yes. That's what I find. That and FAR too many cooks. For instance, one of the things I wanted was a site menu that gave some sort of hover-over help/explanation for what each choice would do. Was it possible within the default theme? Of course not. But you can have hover-over sub-choices so I ended up building a proper kludge of a menu which at least did what I wanted. Now I see that the latest updates to Wordpress, or Buddypress, or possibly bbPress, have broken the way it works for mobile users. It shouldn't because I haven't contravened any of the rules. But where do you even start when there are a thousand places the problem could be?

He May Be Your Dog But He's Wearing My Collar

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)     
43054.15 In reply to 43054.12 
As a user I think it's decent. It provides a word-processory interface, which people are comfortable with (word processors were another wrong-turn imo) so they can easily post their posts and get comments and be perfectly happy. It's massively over-engineered for that, but from the user perspective it does it well.

But as a 'dev' working with a client it's horrible. First off, trying to find a theme that does *most* of what they want and they like the general look of. Sending them test-site links, explaining thoroughly that it's just a theme's test-site, and getting "yeah that looks okay but I'll want my name up the top and the text to be purple" back. Finding a theme is a tedious process and it's never perfect, so it'll need customising, which is where it gets *really* bad.

Some themes come with a (non-standardised, of course) widget to change colours and turn features off and on, which is *good*, except that these ones always end up even harder to customise if what you want to change *isn't* covered by the widget.

So to alter the look of the site it's CSS overrides. Which are always a pain. But WP's HTML and CSS are *nasty*, so it's kludges on kludges on kludges. I hate dealing with software where every single fucking goddamn element on the page has its own (unmemorably named) class. The cascading part of CSS really doesn't work in practise except for the most trivial stuff.

But that's all fine compared to altering functionality. In which case you're doing PHP overrides. Which the themes (if I remember correctly) are already overriding, so if you ever want to change themes you're starting from scratch. And Wordpress is made of one million PHP files and finding which ones (often multiple, to do one thing) you need to override to get the functionality you want is literally the worst experience I've ever had working with software.

And of course, all of these alterations are incredibly fragile. When Wordpress *or* the theme updates, any of them could break. So your best option as a 'dev' is to never update, which is a great thing to encourage.

I ended up refusing to deal with CMSes. I did a few sites, towards the end of when I was doing web stuff, with static site generators, usually Jekyll, which was much more pleasant. But only suitable for people who can get their heads around markdown (again, word processors were a fucking mistake). 

But even Jekyll is overly complex now. I ended up, for my own stuff, writing my own static site generator in bash. It's clunky cos I don't know what I'm doing, but it works great for me (and a handful of other people use it, which is gratifying).

I fucking hate wordpress. I wouldn't mind if the end result was amazing but, ultimately, unless you're using it to run an actually dynamic site, what it's doing is pointless. Databasing text so that you can pull it out of the database every time someone visits and dynamically recreate the exact same page for every visitor (yeah, caching will mitigate some of that but still).
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.16 In reply to 43054.15 
As to word processing being a mistake...

The vast majority of what word processing is used for (internal memos, letters and the like) would be better as plaintext. It'd be quicker to write and easier to read.

For most of the rest, where rich formatting is actually required, a (consumer-level) 'DTP'/page setting application would be better. It's telling that most of my friends, when needing to make a flyer or leaflet or whatever, will use Powerpoint/similar rather than a word processor.

For anything that's to be professionally typeset, I'm 100% certain the typesetter would rather work with plaintext documents than word processor output.

And now we've got markdown which does what basic word processing does way better than any word processor, in cases where you want some basic typography.

A world where we'd normalised around plaintext and had nice tools (and things like markdown much earlier) is a nicer world. Hopefully PDFs would never have become a thing.
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.17 In reply to 43054.15 
Yes, that's the kind of thing I thought. I've never (really) been a dev working for a client. To a degree I was one of the clients, plus being the dev trying to get things as wanted. In short, it was a bit of a bugger. Working out what has to be done to get close is a learning curve, but also something of a waste of time, because it will all be different next time, when the theme or the plugins are updated or whatever.

He May Be Your Dog But He's Wearing My Collar

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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.18 In reply to 43054.16 
Oh yeah, and I almost forgot. All the shit that doesn't work properly in 2024. My site is set up as a site for members using groups, forums, chat etc. So Buddypress/bbPress/Wordpress. All fairly standard. But the handling of posts is infinitely better in Beehive. The pure embarrassment of explaining (again) to somebody who posts from a Word document or Libre Office that their post is full of tags in this part of the site , but not in that part. That their careful paragraph creation is fine here, but missing there... That sometimes their posts vanish altogether because the space-saving hide posts feature is broken sometimes and doesn't display the 'show all posts' option... 

He May Be Your Dog But He's Wearing My Collar

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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.19 In reply to 43054.15 
When I was working, I always told clients ip front I could code them a better, more functional, performant, customizable, easily updated, and transferable to different hosting, web site with HTML5 (I used JQuery heavily for bells and whistles, but this would have not meant anything to the client). Clients liked the idea of being to make their own site edits but in truth they would hand it off to developers anyway, after they fucked it up good.
“A man with nicotine, protein, caffeine, and creatine coursing through his veins is an unstoppable force.”
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)     
43054.20 In reply to 43054.19 
Quote: 
after they fucked it up good

An occurrence that's made extremely likely by the ways that Wordpress with its themes and plugins can be modified. The official ways that is: odd, cumbersome, and varied ways, from mysterious editing functions to directly injecting HTML into a theme (additional CSS). 

He May Be Your Dog But He's Wearing My Collar

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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)     
43054.21 In reply to 43054.20 
These things can usually be patched up, at 10X the time (and cost) of properly formatted, hand-coded source.
“A man with nicotine, protein, caffeine, and creatine coursing through his veins is an unstoppable force.”
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 From:  Mouse  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.22 In reply to 43054.1 
This is maybe worth posting

https://indieweb.org/

I miss the Internet without massive Silos too.

Roses are bollocks, Violets are crud, I hate bloody flowers, And much prefer mud.
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   
 To:  Mouse     
43054.23 In reply to 43054.22 
That's cool!
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)  
 To:  Mouse     
43054.24 In reply to 43054.22 
Interesting. Is it mainly discussion groups with a charter, a hosting platform, blogging thingy, or roll your own?
“A man with nicotine, protein, caffeine, and creatine coursing through his veins is an unstoppable force.”
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 From:  Mouse  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)     
43054.25 In reply to 43054.24 
Roll your own but with standards that allow for intersection. I think.

Webrings basically ????

Roses are bollocks, Violets are crud, I hate bloody flowers, And much prefer mud.
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 From:  Gobfounded (YVE)  
 To:  koswix     
43054.26 In reply to 43054.5 
Or a diagram. Even a photo will do. If I do decide a video is useful then if you don't STFU and stop prattling on in your annoying whiny voice about nothing at all to do with the technique I'm researching I will put you on mute as well as play your video at double speed to get it over with as quickly as possible.

I've been looking for a new sewing machine. Not your typical £120 from Argos or even £400 from John Lewis sewing machine. None of the 4 physical shops within an hour's drive of me have all of the models I was potentially interested in in store to look at so I have had to rely on videos. Some have been excellent calm demonstrations one even a series of 10 minute demos of the different things a particular machine can do with the sound of the machine, rather than annoying music (yes, some have that so you can't hear the machine in action turns out it's a rather noisy machine). One video was a whole hour of 3 people talking over each other and occasionally pointing at the machine, which wasn't even plugged in. Just blatant, pointless "content" rather than anything useful.

Another one was when I was sewing a cardi. Not a complicated garment to out together but there was a tricky curve with a bit of easing required to make the pieces fit together then sit in a particular way so it didn't gape. I was curious abut how various bloggers (it's a popular pattern so there were a lot of them) executed this bit neatly. Short answer, they didn't. Video after video of young women throwing together something crumpled and lumpy, with wobbly seams, that ended up making primark look like haute couture. Just for the sake of bloody "content" again.
:¬]
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 From:  andy  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      
43054.27 In reply to 43054.1 
Quote: 
Everything's bland and homogenised. I'm sure the interesting ideas are out there, still, but even then, the tone has changed. No one's writing about what they love for the love of it, it's a stepping stone to something, you're a brand now, you're building an audience, maybe even starting a business.

been having exactly the same thoughts recently. I haven't been able to untangle how much the earlier 'fun' Internet was a) uncommercialised, b) exclusively used by weirdos, and c) was in my teenage years. And I know there's some kind of irony that I work at Meta, who simultaneously has built something that's captivating enough for half the world to use, yet is so creatively bland/uninspiring/homogenous. 

It also might be that some of the things I miss most still exist, like chatting shit with semi-strangers on message boards or in chat rooms, and I've just not put the effort in to find them again. Although I've lurked on various Reddits and Hacker News for a decade or so, but never felt the need to join in (the latter coincidentally had a post with similar sentiment to yours today).

Dunno if this is just me but there's also some kind of negative pressure to participate in recent years - can't figure out if that's anxiety about saying something stupid (it's easy to perceive everyone on the Internet as an expert at everything these days), or not enjoying the feeling of waiting/checking for replies, or worrying about putting someone else through that feeling if I take too long to reply to replies ????

Anyway, in summary, you're right. I miss it too. I think we were very lucky to have Teh community and all the associated fun stuff in the 90s/00s, so maybe it's better to have loved and lost. But I really hope there's some kind of way to rekindle it.
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 From:  andy  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)     
43054.28 In reply to 43054.10 
podcasts! Can't figure out if I love or hate them. I feel like I'm being unproductive if I walk for 10 minutes without listening to one. But recently I decided to try and write a blog post which occupied my mind for a month or two, and realised I hardly ever am alone with my own thoughts anymore. But then there are a lot of fun/interesting people out there who are more interesting than my own thoughts ????

Great example: I'm pretty late to the party but have been listening to The Rest Is Politics a lot the last few months, and Alistair and Rory both have fascinating minds and talk about super interesting stuff. But why am I listening to it? Totally unactionable, largely stressful, somewhat depressing how fucked so many politicians/political systems are...
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