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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   8 Mar 2020 09:33 
 To:  milko      22 of 42 
42574.22 In reply to 42574.21 
:D

The Schrödinger approach. I should do that - just stop looking into anyone whose work I like.
 
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   8 Mar 2020 13:35 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      23 of 42 
42574.23 In reply to 42574.20 
I shudder a bit whenever I start up a film that has the miramax logo. I think what bothers me most are living artists who manufacture stupid asshole artworks that sell for astronomical prices, and have blockbuster shows, artists like Jeff Koons and Damien Hirst (and maybe Banksy)*. For whatever reason high-visibility artists who made brilliant work** but behaved badly bother me less.

*extending also to best-selling illiterate authors and no-talent pop stars

**specifically using the past tense here.  :-{)
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   8 Mar 2020 13:47 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      24 of 42 
42574.24 In reply to 42574.23 
Oh God yeah, that crop of artists are all unmitigated shits.
 
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   8 Mar 2020 13:48 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      25 of 42 
42574.25 In reply to 42574.24 
But maybe they're really nice people?
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   8 Mar 2020 14:10 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      26 of 42 
42574.26 In reply to 42574.25 
Maybe.
 
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)   8 Mar 2020 16:38 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      27 of 42 
42574.27 In reply to 42574.26 
Particularly vile considering that Hirst boasts that "his own" ideas are stolen.
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   8 Mar 2020 17:03 
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)      28 of 42 
42574.28 In reply to 42574.27 
Yup, absolutely.
 
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   8 Mar 2020 17:08 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      29 of 42 
42574.29 In reply to 42574.26 
Quote: 
How much is a box of pencils worth? Fifty pence? £3.99 if the pencils have rubbers on the ends? Well, if they're part of a Damien Hirst art installation, the value is £500,000.

Jesus fucking christ.

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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)   8 Mar 2020 17:21 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      30 of 42 
42574.30 In reply to 42574.29 
No doubt after years of being told that he's great and with wheelbarrows full of cash being dumped at his door, he really believes that his magic breath can add value to a pack of pencils.
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   8 Mar 2020 22:14 
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)      31 of 42 
42574.31 In reply to 42574.30 
It's probably a purely business decision: he has to defend his value, lest anyone gets it into their heads that his daft projects aren't worth any more than the cost of the raw materials.
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 From:  Manthorp    9 Mar 2020 08:45 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      32 of 42 
42574.32 In reply to 42574.14 
I like that as a position.

With regard to Gill
 
Quote: 
- When the enormity is present in the work itself, with a little bit of adjusting for inflation (were they a monster by the standards of their time, like).

- When the enormity operates in the same realm as the art such that it ruins/taints it (as with Gill). (This one's a bit wishy-washy. Thinkers in the sociological/political sphere who owned slaves? Moral philosophers who were racists? etc.).

​​​​​​​I think my visceral response to him is more the former - he sometimes used his daughters as models. So the eroticism reflects his own desire. Yuck!
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  Manthorp    9 Mar 2020 08:56 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      33 of 42 
42574.33 In reply to 42574.31 
Inherent value is precisely why he made For the Love of God (and why Mark Quinn made Sphinx). So that when the value of their work goes through the late-life and/or post-death slump, there will be works with huge inherent value - and that will help shore up the value of their works with little or no inherent value.

It's essentially, loosely tying the value of their work to platinum/diamond and gold standards.

By the way, I like Hirst's work well enough. I found Away from the Flock and Mother and Child (Divided) deeply affecting. In the flesh, they say something significant about mortality. I like the scalpel blade paintings, too. And of course, he gave the best answer ever to the 'I could have done that' cliche.
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   9 Mar 2020 09:11 
 To:  Manthorp       34 of 42 
42574.34 In reply to 42574.33 
And the pencils?
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 From:  Manthorp    9 Mar 2020 09:27 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      35 of 42 
42574.35 In reply to 42574.34 
Daft.

I remember, many years ago when I was curator of the Yorkshire Sculpture Park, the Director decided it was time to set out one of our Richard Long Slate circles. The slates were kept stacked under a tarpaulin in our storage area. When we had set out all the slates we had, the circle was a good metre short of what it should be. Further investigation revealed that the Bretton Hall caretaker had discovered them, decided that they must be ordinary slates, not art slates, and had used some to pave his new barbecue area.



I told Pete Murray and he absolutely crapped himself - to the extent that he asked me to phone Long myself. I did, and when I explained what had happened Richard roared with laughter, gave us the phone number of the quarry and told us to order another ton, so we'd have a bit spare in case the caretaker wanted to extend the paving.

That's how a decent artist deals with that sort of event.

 
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   9 Mar 2020 09:35 
 To:  Manthorp       36 of 42 
42574.36 In reply to 42574.35 
I'll allow how his (Hirst's) earlier work had some verve and intelligence.

I'm fascinated by how the art market pushes someone like that, at what point does ambition spill over into crass greed and contempt.
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 From:  Manthorp    9 Mar 2020 10:42 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      37 of 42 
42574.37 In reply to 42574.36 
I've never worked in the commercial sector, though obviously, many of the artists I worked with at the YSP and Cartwright Hall were signed to galleries and some (like Moore, Caro, Frink etc.) to the big players. In that limited experience, it struck me that there were three types of agent/gallery.

The first was the - generally regionally-based - agent or gallery owner who worked their socks off for their artists and scraped a living by working every hour god sent.  Often artists themselves. The second was the off-Cork Street London gallery which generally ran at a loss and were the playthings of extremely wealthy owners who enjoyed rubbing up (sometimes literally) against youth and creativity.

The third type were the big boys - the Cork St & New Bond St. galleries which didn't give a shit about art & creativity and would just have happily sold assault rifles if they could get the same margin on them. Those galleries generally marked-up at comfortably over 100%, so they could make huge amounts from a sell-out show. What they wanted was sensation and stylistic ossification.

Hirst is their wet dream, with his factory churning out series of identical or near-identical works that look great on a big white wall, and his (still reasonably frequent) canny sensational interventions, which keep him in the headlines and in the minds of the people who dress oligarchs' homes.
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)   9 Mar 2020 10:53 
 To:  Manthorp       38 of 42 
42574.38 In reply to 42574.35 
Which I think is part of the issue raised when I managed to subvert this thread from its perfectly decent original purpose. The quality of Damien Hirst's work is open to debate, but his response to Cartrain indicates that irrespective of the that, he has some vile attitudes going on.

Curious how these ethical debates centre on writers, film-makers, painters, sculptors, musicians, whatever Damien Hirst is etc. We don't have quite the same concerns about houses, clothes, roads, food, trains and so on. If the pavement from my house to the shops was recently resurfaced by one of the most miserable bastards who ever lived, I don't think I'd consider another route, or worry too much about it. There are issues that are superficially similar e.g. avoiding clothes and shoes made by child workers on poverty wages, but the considerations are different.
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  Manthorp    9 Mar 2020 12:01 
 To:  william (WILLIAMA)      39 of 42 
42574.39 In reply to 42574.38 
You're right that we don't apply the same criterion to other pieces of work: perhaps it has to do with the romantic notion that when we buy a work of art, we are buying a little piece of the maker's soul. If other aspects of that soul are corrupt, maybe the creative product and the transaction are tainted, too?

Buying art is elective, personal and intimate. Maybe a better comparison is with politics and organised religion where we do subscribe with passion & conviction: and we also exert a similar judgmentalism when confronted with the moral fallibility of priests and politicians. Though even that is not a true comparison because career politicians and professional faith leaders trade to a great extent on their probity, whereas artists are expected, if anything, to be a bit wayward & louche.
 
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   9 Mar 2020 12:13 
 To:  Manthorp       40 of 42 
42574.40 In reply to 42574.39 
"career politicians and professional faith leaders trade to a great extent on their probity"

 :-|
“Video games fan fired air pistol at police before being shot”
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   9 Mar 2020 12:53 
 To:  ALL 41 of 42 
42574.41 
I wonder if any of these nasty people had anticipated Google and Twitter, they would have not done some things.
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