War & PoliticsBrexit deal nigh or nyet?

 

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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.41 In reply to 42264.39 
There's an easy conflation for the mouth-foaming zionists, and Christian fundamentalists hankering for Armageddon to make, and some politically ambitious folks pander to, that all criticism of Israel and Zionism, and all support for Palestinians are ipso-facto anti-Semitic.

I think Corbyn's been consistently pretty careful to draw that line, while some acolytes and associates have not.

The unpleasant fact is that some Israeli Jews, including politicians in government, have declared open hatred of Arabs, and some Palestinians in the occupied territories, and the diaspora, have expressed hatred of Jews, so that kind of makes both those people literal anti-Semites, if you accept that both Arabs and Jews are Semitic (YMMV). It is what it is, and denying it sure AF don't help the situation
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   
 To:  milko     
42264.42 In reply to 42264.38 
He's playing an interesting and rather dangerous game of liars' poker with May, and at this point I wouldn't bet on either coming out a winner, but the odds are good the UK will come out a loser if 1. May doesn't accept a Norway-ish custom union (assuming that is even possible, some say it isn't) or 2. Corbyn doesn't back a 2nd referendum RSN.
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  milko  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      
42264.43 In reply to 42264.42 
my current feeling is that a second referendum will also mean UK coming out a loser, but who knows!
milko
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   
 To:  milko     
42264.44 In reply to 42264.43 
Current polling appears to show the stay side would have it, but who knows what crazy lies would be spun by Putin et al to proceed with the trainwreck.
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.45 In reply to 42264.39 
> I agree the anti-semitism has been amplified somewhat, but it's still there on the (far) left.

What exactly is still where?

Can you reference any academic studies that show a statistically significant increase in Jew hatred?

Or, like, just... any vaguely competentish attempt at proving it's more than just lies, misinformation, and FUD.

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42264.46 In reply to 42264.45 
Just have a browse on twitter of what Rachel Riley (of Countdown fame) has been enduring of late and has been highlighting. It exists, it's there, it's not made up and it's not just a few isolated incidents.

https://www.google.com/search?q=anti+semitism+reports+increasing

Yes it exists on both (far) sides and the left have had much more media focus (unfairly in comparison), but that doesn't make it correct.
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 From:  koswix  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      
42264.47 In reply to 42264.29 
If it hasn't started yet, read the last message again.

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If Feds call you and say something bad on me, it may prove what I said are truth, they are afraid of it.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.48 In reply to 42264.46 
> It exists, it's there, it's not made up and it's not just a few isolated incidents.

That is not what I'm saying.

Let me put it another way: fill in the gaps...

get_attachment.php?webtag=DEFAULT&hash=9

Show a greater proportion of anti-Semitic feelings for any of those categories and you'll have changed my position. (Existing percentages derived from the not-particularly-reputable YouGov.)

Attachments:

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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.49 In reply to 42264.46 
Not Corbyn's fault though, is it?
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)      
42264.50 In reply to 42264.49 
Directly no, but it's his group of followers and it somewhat taints his reputation unfortunately.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42264.51 In reply to 42264.48 
You just said it was lies. But you seem to (I think) agree it exists.
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)   
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.52 In reply to 42264.50 
The charge has been vitiated through shrill repetition, and his Blairite/Con enemies have since discovered pacifism is a better stick to beat him with.

How can you be a real empire without (American supplied & controlled) nukes?
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.53 In reply to 42264.51 
The lie is that Labour have a problem with anti-Semitism, and specifically Corbyn's Labour party.

I made no claim about the entire UK not having a problem.

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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.54 In reply to 42264.50 
> it's his group of followers and it somewhat taints his reputation unfortunately.

No, it's not "his" group of followers.

Jeremy Corbyn is opposed to what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians.

That attracts support of other people with the same view - and Jeremy welcomes these people.

It may also attract the support of people with an "enemy of my enemy" perspective, which includes people who don't care what the Israeli government is doing, but opposes Israel purely because it's a Jewish nation - and Jeremy condemns those people.

I've challenged you to support your assertions with evidence: find statistics that Labour attracts more anti-Semites than other parties. The Tory-leaning YouGov found they've got the lowest rates amongst voters (despite the above), and there's no reason to expect this to be any different among the party membership.

By believing and repeating that it is a Labour/Corbyn problem without any such proof, you're spreading the propaganda and contributing to the damaged reputation, and in turn reducing the chance of replacing the Conservatives.

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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
42264.55 In reply to 42264.54 
Do Labour now have a problem with antisemitism?
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 From:  Manthorp  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.56 In reply to 42264.55 
What is self-evident is that both Labour and the Tories have a problem with leadership. A fundamental role of leadership is keeping the team together; and both leaderships are failing to do so.

It's partly, but only partly, a consequence of the almost unfeasibly broad churches created by the first-past-the-post voting system, and the responsibility that imposes upon the respective leaderships to maintain a working level of loyalty from MPs with a wide range of political convictions. That's exacerbated by the fact that both parties are currently pandering to their ideological heartlands (Labour through the convictions of the leadership, the Tories out of tactical necessity) and both have alienated members of their one-nation factions as a consequence.

Lastly, both parties currently have chronically weak leadership teams. All-in-all it's a right bloody mess and won't get better unless and until the parties elect strong, inclusive leaders and/or government introduces voting reform*.






*Not gonna happen

"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  milko  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.57 In reply to 42264.55 
They now have the same problem as before, disingenuous accusations claiming it's the leadership somehow at fault for random people on social media. Or that the people within the party who've been referred to police investigations are somehow not being dealt with quickly enough I suppose, but that would be the police following legal process?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-crucial-ally-in-fight-against-antisemitism

Naturally, people are unironically using antisemitic arguments "the wrong kind of jew" to argue that this letter doesn't count and labour are antisemitic. Ho hum!
milko
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 From:  milko  
 To:  milko     
42264.58 In reply to 42264.57 
https://www.facebook.com/aboyle11/posts/10158277882684358
 
Quote: 

1. In October 1936, Jeremy Corbyn’s mother participated in the battle of Cable Street indefence of British Jews after British fascists had staged an assault on the area. Corbyn was raised in a household passionately opposed to antisemitism in all its forms.

2. In 23rd April 1977, Corbyn organised a counter-demonstrationto protect Wood Green from a neo-nazi march through the district. The area had a significant Jewish population.

3. On 7 November 1990, Corbyn signed a motion condemning the rise of antisemitism in the UK

4. In 2002 Jeremy Corbyn led a clean-up and vigil at Finsbury Park Synagogue which had been vandalised in an anti-Semitic attack

5. On 30 April 2002, Corbyn tabled a motion in the House of Commons condemning ananti-Semitic attackon a London Synagogue

6. On 26 November 2003, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemningterrorist attacks on two synagogues

7. In February 2009, Jeremy Corbyn signed a parliamentary motion condemning a fascist for establishing a website to host antisemitic materials

8. On 24th March 2009, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising British Jews who resisted the Holocaust by risking their lives to save potential victims

9. Nine years ago, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising “Jewish News”for its pioneering investigation into the spread ofAntisemitism on Facebook

10. On 9 February 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion calling for an investigation into Facebook and its failure to prevent the spread of antisemitic materials on its site.

11. On 27 October 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising the late Israeli Prime Minister for pursuing a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine question.

12. On 13 June 2012, Corbyn sponsored and signed a motion condemning the BBC for cutting a Jewish Community television programme from its schedule.

13. 1 October 2013, Corbyn appeared on the BBC to defend Ralph Miliband against vile antisemitic attacks by the UK press.

14. Five years ago Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning antisemitism in sport.

15. On 1 March 2013, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning and expressing concern at growing levels of antisemitism in European football.

16. On 9 January 2014, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising Holocaust education programmes that had taken 20,000 British students to Auschwitz.

17. On 22 June 2015, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion expressing concern at the neo-nazi march being planned for an area of London with a significant Jewish population.

18. On 9 October 2016, Corbyn, close to tears, commemorated the 1936 Battle of Cable Street and recalled the role his mother played in defending London’s Jewish community.

19. On 3 December 2016, Corbyn made a visit to Terezin Concentration Camp when Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. It was Jeremy’s third visit to such a camp, all of which were largely unreported in the most read UK papers.

20. Last year, a widely-endorsed 2018 academic report found ninety-five serious reporting failures in the reporting of the LabourAntisemitism story with the worst offenders The Sun, the Mail & the BBC.

21. On 28 February 2016, five months after becoming leader, Jeremy Corbyn appointed Baroness Royall to investigate antisemitism at Oxford University Labour Club.

22. On 27 April 2016 Corbyn suspended an MP pending an investigation into antisemitism.

23. A day later, Corbyn suspended the three times Mayor of London after complaints of antisemitic comments. Party.

24. On 29 April 2016, Corbyn launched an inquiry into the prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party. In spite of later changes in how the inquiry was reported, it was initially praised by Jewish community organisations.

25. In Corbyn’s first seven months as leader of the Labour Party, just ten complaints were received about antisemitism. 90% of those were suspended from the Labour Party within 24 hours.

26. In September 2017, Corbyn backed a motion at Labour’s annual conference introducing a new set of rules regarding antisemitism.

27. In the six months that followed the introduction of the new code of conduct, to March 2018, 94% of the fifty-four people accused of antisemitism remained suspended or barred from Labour Party membership. Three of the fifty-four were exonerated.

28. When Jennie Formby became general secretary of the party last year, she appointed a highly-qualified in-house Counsel, as recommended in the Chakrabarti Report.

29. In 2018, Labour almost doubled the size of its staff team handling investigations and dispute processes.

30. Last year, to speed up the handling of antisemitism cases, smaller panels of 3-5 NEC members were established to enable cases to be heard more quickly.

31. Since 2018, every complaint made about antisemitism is allocated its own independent specialist barrister to ensure due process is followed.

32. The entire backlog of cases outstanding upon Jennie Formby becoming General Secretary of the Labour Party was cleared within 6 months of Jennie taking up her post.

33. Since September 2018, Labour has doubled the size of its National Constitutional Committee (NCC) – its senior disciplinary panel – from 11 to 25 members to enable it to process cases more quickly.

34. Under Formby and Labour’s left-run NEC, NCC arranged elections at short notice to ensure the NCC reached its new full capacity without delay.

35. Since later 2018, the NCC routinely convenes a greater number of hearing panels to allow cases to be heard and finalised without delay.

36. In 2018, the NEC established a ‘Procedures Working Group’ to lead reforms in the way disciplinary cases are handled.

37. The NEC adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism and all eleven examples of antisemitism attached to it.

38. A rule change agreed at Conference in 2018 means that all serious complaints, including antisemitism, are dealt with nationally to ensure consistency.

39. Last year, Jennie Formby wrote to the admins and moderators of Facebook groups about how they can effectively moderate online spaces and requested that any discriminatory content be reported to the Labour Party for investigation.

40. Since last year, no one outside Labour’s Governance and Legal Unit can be involved in decision-making on antisemitism investigations. This independence allows decisions free from political influence to be taken.

milko
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 From:  william (WILLIAMA)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.59 In reply to 42264.55 
What Milko said.

Journalists such as Tom Bower and Stephen Pollard are virulently right wing and prepared to use their ethnicity to attack Corbyn and anybody else they oppose, Jewish or otherwise. Corbyn's Jewish supporters such as the author Michael Rosen or journalist Michael Segalov are routinely abused and insulted because they don't fall into line. Rosen is somebody who has been told that he is not a 'proper' Jew and Segalov was told on national television that he was a 'self-hating Jew' by Tom Bower. 

It doesn't help that many Labour supporters, fellow travellers and trolls sometimes appear to be incapable of thinking before speaking and keeping their mouths shut. It follows that anything sensible they say goes unreported whereas anything stupid or ill considered is covered by all media outlets alongside a routinely unchallenged right wing commentary. The clown George Galloway is attempting to rejoin the Labour party and interviewed by Sky News he was asked about antisemitism. Not only did he dismiss the whole issue as 'black ops', he went on to describe it as 'Goebellian', a choice of words so head-smackingly stupid that it almost defies belief. 

Yes, the Labour party does have a problem. There are antisemites and there are stupid people by the fistful. It is not and never will be remotely on the same scale as the anti-semitism and racism of all sorts within the Tory party and their supporters even though the Labour party is nearly five times larger. A huge amount has been done to address the problem. This will never be properly reported. On a pragmatic level, the problem is the press which is almost wholly happy to support and amplify the accusations. On a moral level it is a problem that it exists and Labour should never stop addressing it.
never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
42264.60 In reply to 42264.55 
My stance remains the same until the evidence changes.

I try not to waste my life with the news, so I just did this search: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=labour+r%3Auk&iar=news

The first seemingly relevant article was this one: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-denies-wide-scale-bullying-in-the-labour-party-a4074506.html

It mentions Ian Austin posted a full statement on his website, so I find that here: http://www.ianaustin.co.uk/i_have_taken_the_difficult_decision_to_leave_the_labour_party

There's a lot of rhetoric, so if I'm missing anything substantial you'll have to point it out me, but this seems to be the crux of Ian's statement:

"Jeremy Corbyn and the people around him have turned a mainstream party into something very different. He has spent his entire political career working with and supporting all sorts of extremists, and in some cases terrorists and antisemites. I always thought he was unfit to lead the Labour Party and I certainly think he is unfit to lead our country."

Um, yeah. :/

The quote Milko posted is also a lot of waffle, but it does have actual statistics. It suggests Jeremy Corbyn's Labour have dealt with anti-semitism from 2 MPs and 60 party members. Can you show proof of ignored complaints or unhandled issues? How many complaints have the Conservatives received and what was their outcome? What about the Lib Dems?

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