War & PoliticsBrexit deal nigh or nyet?

  

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 From:  milko   17 Jan 2019 10:49 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      37 of 200 
42264.37 In reply to 42264.35 
the anti-semitism stuff seems almost entirely bullshit though. 

and I don't agree he's become pro-Brexit, I think that's just more crappy reporting. He's honest and nuanced about it however!
milko
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 From:  milko   17 Jan 2019 10:52 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)       38 of 200 
42264.38 In reply to 42264.36 
nah, he's been absolutely clear (and then terribly reported) about this: he's about 7/10 in favour of the EU, saying that it has some serious problems (it does) that are better resolved from within and the downsides of leaving are worse than remaining and trying to improve it.

Obviously 99.9% of the press then report this as TRAITOR CORBS HATES YOU AND THE EU but there we are.

Today the PM won't move on the red lines and Corbyn wants her to remove the no-deal possibility as a condition of talks moving forward. So she says no. Watch in a few days where, by her own clever thinking and decision making entirely!, she says no deal won't work and we should avoid it at all costs. 
milko
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   17 Jan 2019 12:29 
 To:  milko      39 of 200 
42264.39 In reply to 42264.38 
Problem is all MPs who voted to activate Article 50 knew by definition that if they don't agree to a transition deal that automatically results in a no deal Brexit. No deal Brexit would be catastrophic, but they knowingly voted for that.

I agree the anti-semitism has been amplified somewhat, but it's still there on the (far) left.

If he's not pro-Brexit is he then pro implementing the referendum result?
Slightly different with it being a "will of the people" argument.

He's said he would renegotiate a different deal with the EU, single market etc, so that says he'd go ahead with Brexit if in power. Jobs first Brexit and all that, which makes him sound very stupid, because Brexit is pretty much guaranteed to cause job losses in all versions of it. If he would actually do that obviously remains to be seen.
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 From:  milko   17 Jan 2019 14:02 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      40 of 200 
42264.40 In reply to 42264.39 
All parliament have to be pro-democracy so none of them are going to say they'll reverse it immediately against 'the will of the fucking twats'. What's done is done until such time as they can persuade the masses that it's a bad idea to leave because of the downsides. Hopefully that renegotiation would get us there but given there's has been almost zero minds changed by the clusterfuck so far, I don't have much hope. ugh.

Regarding the far left, that's not really for Corbyn to personally do a lot about. The Party machinery has to do it, which is one of the things that make Labour good since its in the controls of the membership. The standards being asked are ludicrous compared to what many of the critics (EG press, tories) maintain themselves which is well below what Labour have ended up with now.
milko
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)    17 Jan 2019 14:34 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      41 of 200 
42264.41 In reply to 42264.39 
There's an easy conflation for the mouth-foaming zionists, and Christian fundamentalists hankering for Armageddon to make, and some politically ambitious folks pander to, that all criticism of Israel and Zionism, and all support for Palestinians are ipso-facto anti-Semitic.

I think Corbyn's been consistently pretty careful to draw that line, while some acolytes and associates have not.

The unpleasant fact is that some Israeli Jews, including politicians in government, have declared open hatred of Arabs, and some Palestinians in the occupied territories, and the diaspora, have expressed hatred of Jews, so that kind of makes both those people literal anti-Semites, if you accept that both Arabs and Jews are Semitic (YMMV). It is what it is, and denying it sure AF don't help the situation
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)    17 Jan 2019 14:43 
 To:  milko      42 of 200 
42264.42 In reply to 42264.38 
He's playing an interesting and rather dangerous game of liars' poker with May, and at this point I wouldn't bet on either coming out a winner, but the odds are good the UK will come out a loser if 1. May doesn't accept a Norway-ish custom union (assuming that is even possible, some say it isn't) or 2. Corbyn doesn't back a 2nd referendum RSN.
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  milko   17 Jan 2019 16:32 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)       43 of 200 
42264.43 In reply to 42264.42 
my current feeling is that a second referendum will also mean UK coming out a loser, but who knows!
milko
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)    17 Jan 2019 16:59 
 To:  milko      44 of 200 
42264.44 In reply to 42264.43 
Current polling appears to show the stay side would have it, but who knows what crazy lies would be spun by Putin et al to proceed with the trainwreck.
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   17 Jan 2019 20:02 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      45 of 200 
42264.45 In reply to 42264.39 
> I agree the anti-semitism has been amplified somewhat, but it's still there on the (far) left.

What exactly is still where?

Can you reference any academic studies that show a statistically significant increase in Jew hatred?

Or, like, just... any vaguely competentish attempt at proving it's more than just lies, misinformation, and FUD.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   17 Jan 2019 20:57 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      46 of 200 
42264.46 In reply to 42264.45 
Just have a browse on twitter of what Rachel Riley (of Countdown fame) has been enduring of late and has been highlighting. It exists, it's there, it's not made up and it's not just a few isolated incidents.

https://www.google.com/search?q=anti+semitism+reports+increasing

Yes it exists on both (far) sides and the left have had much more media focus (unfairly in comparison), but that doesn't make it correct.
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 From:  koswix   17 Jan 2019 22:54 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)       47 of 200 
42264.47 In reply to 42264.29 
If it hasn't started yet, read the last message again.

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If Feds call you and say something bad on me, it may prove what I said are truth, they are afraid of it.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   17 Jan 2019 23:24 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      48 of 200 
42264.48 In reply to 42264.46 
> It exists, it's there, it's not made up and it's not just a few isolated incidents.

That is not what I'm saying.

Let me put it another way: fill in the gaps...

get_attachment.php?webtag=DEFAULT&hash=9

Show a greater proportion of anti-Semitic feelings for any of those categories and you'll have changed my position. (Existing percentages derived from the not-particularly-reputable YouGov.)

Attachments:
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)    17 Jan 2019 23:57 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      49 of 200 
42264.49 In reply to 42264.46 
Not Corbyn's fault though, is it?
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   18 Jan 2019 07:46 
 To:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)       50 of 200 
42264.50 In reply to 42264.49 
Directly no, but it's his group of followers and it somewhat taints his reputation unfortunately.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   18 Jan 2019 07:47 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      51 of 200 
42264.51 In reply to 42264.48 
You just said it was lies. But you seem to (I think) agree it exists.
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 From:  CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)    18 Jan 2019 10:13 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      52 of 200 
42264.52 In reply to 42264.50 
The charge has been vitiated through shrill repetition, and his Blairite/Con enemies have since discovered pacifism is a better stick to beat him with.

How can you be a real empire without (American supplied & controlled) nukes?
“I’m old, sedentary and slouch a lot – will standing up at my desk … um, never mind.”
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   18 Jan 2019 22:52 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      53 of 200 
42264.53 In reply to 42264.51 
The lie is that Labour have a problem with anti-Semitism, and specifically Corbyn's Labour party.

I made no claim about the entire UK not having a problem.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   18 Jan 2019 23:27 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      54 of 200 
42264.54 In reply to 42264.50 
> it's his group of followers and it somewhat taints his reputation unfortunately.

No, it's not "his" group of followers.

Jeremy Corbyn is opposed to what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians.

That attracts support of other people with the same view - and Jeremy welcomes these people.

It may also attract the support of people with an "enemy of my enemy" perspective, which includes people who don't care what the Israeli government is doing, but opposes Israel purely because it's a Jewish nation - and Jeremy condemns those people.

I've challenged you to support your assertions with evidence: find statistics that Labour attracts more anti-Semites than other parties. The Tory-leaning YouGov found they've got the lowest rates amongst voters (despite the above), and there's no reason to expect this to be any different among the party membership.

By believing and repeating that it is a Labour/Corbyn problem without any such proof, you're spreading the propaganda and contributing to the damaged reputation, and in turn reducing the chance of replacing the Conservatives.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   22 Feb 2019 06:57 
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      55 of 200 
42264.55 In reply to 42264.54 
Do Labour now have a problem with antisemitism?
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 From:  Manthorp   22 Feb 2019 09:35 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      56 of 200 
42264.56 In reply to 42264.55 
What is self-evident is that both Labour and the Tories have a problem with leadership. A fundamental role of leadership is keeping the team together; and both leaderships are failing to do so.

It's partly, but only partly, a consequence of the almost unfeasibly broad churches created by the first-past-the-post voting system, and the responsibility that imposes upon the respective leaderships to maintain a working level of loyalty from MPs with a wide range of political convictions. That's exacerbated by the fact that both parties are currently pandering to their ideological heartlands (Labour through the convictions of the leadership, the Tories out of tactical necessity) and both have alienated members of their one-nation factions as a consequence.

Lastly, both parties currently have chronically weak leadership teams. All-in-all it's a right bloody mess and won't get better unless and until the parties elect strong, inclusive leaders and/or government introduces voting reform*.






*Not gonna happen
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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