War & PoliticsGun Laws

  

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 From:  fixrman    11 Oct 2014 02:05 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)      85 of 177 
41226.85 In reply to 41226.81 
OK, WW.

 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman    11 Oct 2014 02:24 
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)      86 of 177 
41226.86 In reply to 41226.78 
Do you really believe that? I am not so sure.

I killed a squirrel the other day, intentionally. Not because I wanted to (even though I hate their destructiveness), I sort of had to. Ever had a squirrel in your house/flat? I have. It can get dicey and dangerous. They have claws and teeth. They chew on rain gutters, tree limbs and are ruining my chimney. They've taken up a nest in the Douglas fir in my front yard. I wasn't happy I killed it, rather relieved the pest was gone.

If they didn't make so much noise bounding across the roof (and ruining it) it would be one thing. But they are contantly digging in my grass to find nuts they haven't buried or are too stupid to remember where they are. They dig in our flower pots/beds for nuts that aren't there. If I get three more, the family is gone and I save a possible 18 more baby squirrels.

Squirrels have no real enemies here. A hawk will get them occasionally, but not often enough to keep populations down. I do, however, not care to fire pellets indiscriminately, so I think I will get a lethal trap and avoid problems in the future. You can kill nuisance squirrels, but shooting them is not in any way encouraged, so I will have to give it up. Trapping will do the same thing in the end and the Broad Wing may appreciate no steel in his lunch, should he find it soon enough after termination.

Perhaps I can train one...
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)   11 Oct 2014 02:51 
 To:  fixrman       87 of 177 
41226.87 In reply to 41226.86 
Murdererererer!
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If you don't like donut, then leave it alone. Nobody force you to eat it.
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 From:  fixrman    11 Oct 2014 12:31 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)      88 of 177 
41226.88 In reply to 41226.87 
Hey, it was either him or my gutters, flower pots, gardens or lawn.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)   11 Oct 2014 17:18 
 To:  fixrman       89 of 177 
41226.89 In reply to 41226.86 
I didn't mean happy in the sense of taking pleasure, but rather happy in the sense of something you're comfortable with as a consequence. In other words, don't shoot things you don't want dead.

For example, our armed police "shoot to stop", because "shooting to kill" implies that you're going to keep on shooting until they're dead. However, they will only ever shoot someone when the idea of the person being killed is better than the alternative.

Shooting to wound (and anything similar) is idiocy and a complete misnomer. It's an absolute best case scenario in a huge scale of bad things up to long drawn out death, none of which the shooter is particularly in control of. In addition, you're much more likely to fuck it up and miss and, if you can afford to miss, then you probably shouldn't be shooting at them anyway.

Dan Herman
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 From:  fixrman    11 Oct 2014 21:59 
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)      90 of 177 
41226.90 In reply to 41226.89 
Quote: 
something you're comfortable with as a consequence.

I don't think anyone is "comfortable" if it is necessary to kill someone else to save their own life, rather something they are resigned to; the alternative may not be known, but against potential may be the only option available at the time.

Quote: 

our armed police "shoot to stop", because "shooting to kill" implies that you're going to keep on shooting until they're dead.

In most cases may end up being the same thing.

IA; Why did you keep shooting, Nigel? 

N: Because he kept coming.

IA: So when he stopped, you stopped shooting?

N: Yes.

IA: How was he when you checked him?

N: He was dead.
 

Quote: 
Shooting to wound (and anything similar) is idiocy

Don't you think in a tense situation such as a gun standoff, people just shoot? Aim small, miss small. In a situation where one is using a gun, I don't think the thought is on whether or not they can afford to miss - or whether there is control; if there is control, there is no need to shoot. Basically when you have two people with guns, let's say one good one bad, it is a war. War is a total breakdown of communication that results in a violence being perpetrated one on the other. One individual may be a reluctant participant, yet is compelled to act in self preservation.

If one is shooting at someone, they don't want to miss because the other might not. Hopefully it is a hit and the bad guy misses. But if it is coming down to that, what is the other option?
 

 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)   12 Oct 2014 10:08 
 To:  fixrman       91 of 177 
41226.91 In reply to 41226.90 
I really file like you arguing wiht me over small semantics here when you know what point I'm trying to make.

Yes, you can use "resigned to" instead of "comfortable with" if you wish, but the key point I was making before what that nobody should ever shoot at something that they don't want (with whatever definition you choose) dead.

No idea why you picked the tiny bit of quote about shooting to stop when, again, I was just clarifying it's shoot to stop because shoot to kill has other implications (I.e., you'll run over and tap them in the head if they're still breathing). 

And I have no real idea where you're going with the last bit. Ken was making a point that people might shoot to injure/wound - my point is if you're shooting, you should believe that it's 99% likely that person will die. And, if you're not okay with that, you need to keep your finger off the trigger.

Dan Herman
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 From:  fixrman    12 Oct 2014 12:31 
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)      92 of 177 
41226.92 In reply to 41226.91 
Dan, I don't know you well enough to know necessarily what you mean. I am sure this discussion would go differently in person because we could see each others expressions, hear tone, experience body language - all the things helpful in discerning position. Plus, there is a little bit of a difference in our expressions here and yours there that even my English heritage doesn't fully account.

The point I am trying to make is that I do not have some sort of "cowboy" mentality when it comes to guns; I believe gun ownership carries with it great responsibility, and even greater responsibility with their use. I believe gun ownership should be difficult to get and difficult to keep. Desperados were criminals and I am not a criminal.

I believe guns should be allowed for those who have been approved via a strict process. I believe if a gun is to be used for defense it should be treated the same way we are told to drive, i.e we drive defensively, not offensively. I believe if we followed the gun laws we already have, we would not have half the problems we have now with guns.

Sorry. I forgot. If I am shooting at someone in self defense I am not sure I would injure to wound, I think I would be shooting to hit. So that means trunk area until I see that the person no longer is a threat, such as having dropped their firearm.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Manthorp   14 Oct 2014 18:24 
 To:  ALL 93 of 177 
41226.93 
Milko is a fine example of the right of the British to bear small arms. IGMC
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)   14 Oct 2014 20:17 
 To:  ALL 94 of 177 
41226.94 
I rather like the fact that Americans can kill each other. It makes so much more sense than them killing other things.

truffy.gifbastard by name
bastard by nature
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 From:  fixrman    15 Oct 2014 02:04 
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)      95 of 177 
41226.95 In reply to 41226.94 
Brits can kill each other too, and have done. It is messy and takes a long time, but even a bumbershoot will do.

I'd say at this point this thread has gone long past a useful purpose, that being gun laws. You are now reducing it to taunting and ridicule. Gun laws: We have them. They aren't good enough and/or aren't being followed.

I won't convince anyone they should have or want to have guns, and you folks will not convince me to give up my right to have or own them - not that I want to do either. It is an impasse.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  Manthorp   15 Oct 2014 02:51 
 To:  fixrman       96 of 177 
41226.96 In reply to 41226.95 
Kinda what I said some time ago.  But it's not an impasse because there's no meaningful dispute.

We operate on different moral guages.  Who's to say which is right? Morality is more relative than any of us would care to think.

The common ground is in agreeing that nations and communities have the right to their own moral principles and supporting legislation. A chacun son goût, as they say.
"We all have flaws, and mine is being wicked."
James Thurber, The Thirteen Clocks 1951
 
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 From:  fixrman    15 Oct 2014 15:11 
 To:  Manthorp      97 of 177 
41226.97 In reply to 41226.96 
No, actually you are right. I am not disputing we have some problems with our gun laws. They need to be followed.

The discussion got sidetracked to assertions that Americans should give up their guns and guns should be made illegal. Whether or not I agree in immaterial because it isn't up to me. I will say this though, I do not believe giving up rights for safety is a guarantee for more safety - it could mean less.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman    20 Oct 2014 21:42 
 To:  ALL 98 of 177 
41226.98 In reply to 41226.97 
You know, one of the issues here in the U.S. that nobody seems to take account of is that here in the U.S., another reason people have guns is that we live in a much more dangerous and wild environment than folks in the U.K. do.

Here we have dogs, wolves, opossum, moose, bears, mountain lions, coyotes, crocodiles, alligators. Dog attacks alone cost about a billion dollars a year due to injuries and deaths. Even deer cause lots of vehicular damage and about 100 deaths per year. Have to cull the herds.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   20 Oct 2014 21:50 
 To:  fixrman       99 of 177 
41226.99 In reply to 41226.98 
Not too dissimilar to many farmers in the UK legally owning guns.

I imagine most people on here wouldn't disagree that owning guns for protection against wild animals is a reasonable thing.

It's the owning guns for protection against other people that the disagreement more than likely lies.
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)   21 Oct 2014 00:51 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      100 of 177 
41226.100 In reply to 41226.99 
Then they need to stop acting like wild animals!
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If you don't like donut, then leave it alone. Nobody force you to eat it.
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 From:  fixrman    21 Oct 2014 01:19 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)      101 of 177 
41226.101 In reply to 41226.100 
Can i hear an Amen?
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  DeannaG (CYBATRON)   22 Oct 2014 05:49 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)      102 of 177 
41226.102 In reply to 41226.74 
I'm a horror movie and show freak myself. :)

I agree. You don't have to kill to protect, but if they've got the means to shoot back, I'll be damned if I'm giving them the chance to do it.

I haven't been prepping for the worst and to protect my family so someone of ill intent can break into my home, hurt those I love, and take what I've saved up for them.

I won't kill if I don't have to, but I have to, I will. I'm sure I'm not the only who feels that way these days. Especially with the state of our country and the economy, and it's not just our country having problems.

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 From:  DeannaG (CYBATRON)   22 Oct 2014 05:50 
 To:  fixrman       103 of 177 
41226.103 In reply to 41226.75 
Quote: 
I don't miss. Ask the squirrel.   ;-)
 :-D

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 From:  DeannaG (CYBATRON)   22 Oct 2014 05:57 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)      104 of 177 
41226.104 In reply to 41226.77 
Unfortunately, a lot aren't smart enough to fear the sound of a gun. They're where a lot of the problems are born. They think the owner won't actually shoot them. Sometimes they're right, but sometimes they're wrong, and like you said, bad shit happens. I'm of the opinion it's they're own damn fault for breaking in in the first place, and in the second not getting out quick at the sound of that gun.

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