War & PoliticsThe natives are getting restless

 

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 From:  fixrman  
 To:  Kenny J (WINGNUTKJ)     
41190.118 In reply to 41190.112 
Quote: 
so they obviously want something".
And I'd say they better get it. As I said a few moments ago, this should be a wake up call to ALL Republics and Democracies that "united" should actually mean something for everyone involved, not just many or most.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  fixrman     
41190.119 In reply to 41190.117 
Regarding turn out I think it was particularly high for two reasons.

1. People cared about the result
2. They knew their vote counted

Such a shame we didn't vote in favour of the Alternative Vote here in the UK. Whilst it wasn't the best form of Proportional Representation it was a step in the right direction in terms of electoral reform.
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)  
 To:  ALL
41190.120 
Well sheeeeeeiiiiiiittttttt, I was pulling for team yes!
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If you don't like donut, then leave it alone. Nobody force you to eat it.
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 From:  fixrman  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41190.121 In reply to 41190.108 
Quote: 
And then you criticise the US democratic process. Odd, no?

The U.S. "Democratic" process, for as good as it might be in some respects is exceedingly flawed which is why Lucy crticises it and is quite right in doing so.

Basically in the U.S. we have two kinds of people that are a combination of several factors: voters and non-voters; relatively informed and relatively uninformed; emotional and logical; pro-union (as in labour) and anti-union; and so on.

The categories could be endless and there are commonalities in the combinations that sort of define the typical Democrat and the typical Republican. Where it becomes a problem is when the low information voters use a single issue to define their entire vote. Politicans cater to this and try to appear to be the most appealing to the most number of people on single issues; it isn't as simple as it seems because they have to try to do it in such a way as to not really tip their hand for total support or rejection of a topic. Nobody lays out their entire platform becasue they'd lose votes that way. Then they do as much as they can for themselves to stay in power and try to bribe their constituents with their own tax money in the form of projects.

If we called city inhabitants Democrats in Scotland and suburbanites Republicans in Scotland, that would fairly accurately show how the vote went in America for prezbo. That's why he won, appeal to large population centers. Also, prezbo won much more of the young, idealistic vote (against young idealists voting republican) which is probably similar to the demographic voting for secession. In the Scottish scenario I see their vote as probably more defining and beneficial (potentially) in end results than defeat would indicate. At least I hope so.

 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  fixrman     
41190.122 In reply to 41190.117 
if your wife asked for a separation you wouldn't want to be involved?

Jon
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 From:  milko  
 To:  JonCooper     
41190.123 In reply to 41190.122 
Scotland and the UK isn't a marriage though. I don't really feel like analogies are helpful on this one. 
milko
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 From:  fixrman  
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)     
41190.124 In reply to 41190.120 
Idealist, romantic, prick! It is none of your business!

Actually that is how I voted in the poll. The knee jerk reaction is to say yes. But without a full foundation for continuance after the vote and all the ramifications involved it would seem to be more emotional than practical. I think if they work out details in advance of the next vote, perhaps there is success the next time around. Or perhaps if Britain follows through on promises to give more power to Edinburgh, they won't feel the need to have another vote.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  JonCooper     
41190.125 In reply to 41190.122 
Milko is probably right on this one.

But let's see it as an abusive relationship. Should the abused have to seek permission from the abuser to end the marriage?
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 From:  fixrman  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
41190.126 In reply to 41190.119 
I am not getting the concepts but I think it was because I was up too early Thursday morning and to sleep too late this morning following the vote.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
41190.127 In reply to 41190.125 
Actually, I think Milko is probably right too

I don't think this has been an abusive relationship, I think Scotland has been treated pretty well and I am glad to see a majority of them think so too

I just see it as an anomaly that, when the possible result was break up of the union, 92% of the members were not involved in the decision

Jon
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)  
 To:  fixrman     
41190.128 In reply to 41190.124 
I know I don't have any ties currently, and I guess it is a romantic pick!  My grams came from Scotland when she was but a wee lass.  I'm pretty sure I've posted the boarding pass here in the past from their adventures to America.  I think she was 7 when they came here.  She passed away two years ago but I can still hear her slightly accented voice!  It said vote yes!
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If you don't like donut, then leave it alone. Nobody force you to eat it.
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 From:  fixrman  
 To:  JonCooper     
41190.129 In reply to 41190.122 
Artful, but it isn't the same at all.

I'd suspect that if my wife wanted separation, my vote would not really count anyway. Plus, she is catholic so she would want an annulment vs separation or divorce, but she'd never get an annulment if I had anything to say about it. Annulments are, as you lot say, bollocks. Church-santioned divorce to salve a conscience via a "donation" to the church of $1200.00 or more (likely way more today) is ridiculous. It is all about the money.

Two people who marry should have worked out their differences prior and made a concerted wffort at communication and commitment along the way. I took the oath of marriage seriously; I did not have to marry, I chose to. It is an ethereal thing, a marriage, one that too many take lightly or don't truly believe in in the first place. For some it is a thing to do or a societal license to have children. I have heard many men say that and more. If I hadn't believed in the sanctity of marriage, I would not have participated in one.

If my wife wanted a separation, in a theoretical sense, why would I want a vote? If she doesn't want me any more, I don't want her. That isn't a "vote", it is resignation to a reality.

In the Scottish sense, they are separate from England because of devolution as I understand it. It is I think quite a bit more complicated an arrangement than our States because the U.S. Supreme Court has determined secession is uncontitutional, although the U.S. Constitution does not specifically address the issue. This more came about as a result of the Civil War.

I have to admit being rather ignorant about the Scottish situation. I'd welcome more explanation on Scots and their desires to be independent. Fascinating historical event and hardly much on it here. Most people here probably don't even know about the Declaration of Arbroath as I didn't before the other day, upon which our own Declaration was based.
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  fixrman  
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)     
41190.130 In reply to 41190.128 
Haha! I'd have been interested what my grandmother would have thought. She came here in '47, a war bride. My mom was born over there in '43 and I haven't even talked to her about it yet. How silly of me.

** No wonder you are such an anglophile.  :-P
 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  JonCooper     
41190.131 In reply to 41190.127 
I was definitely being extreme in my analogy.

But in terms of marriage if one person wants out then why should the other have a say in the actual separation?

Of course the break up of assets, finances etc they'll have a large say, but not the actual end of the relationship.
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 From:  johngti_mk-ii  
 To:  ALL
41190.132 
I want to know why he feels the need to resign. He tried, it didn't work. Get over it and keep doing your job. If it's because the SNP feel they've missed something important, they should call an election. Like what labour should've done in 2007

Add THE VETOES to your myspace friends!!! Pretty please :D

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  johngti_mk-ii     
41190.133 In reply to 41190.132 
The man deserves a rest. He's been instrumental in achieving an improbable amount.

Also the party's going to need to kinda rebrand for a while I'd imagine and that'd be much easier with a new leader.
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 From:  Jo (JELLS)  
 To:  johngti_mk-ii     
41190.134 In reply to 41190.132 
Quote: 
I want to know why he feels the need to resign.
Maybe he doesn't want to be FM of a non-independent country? Similar thing happened here, after the Quebec referendum of 1995. The premier of the province at the time, Jacques Parizeau, resigned after the Yes side lost because he didn't want to be FM of a province - he wanted to be the leader of a country.
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 From:  johngti_mk-ii  
 To:  Jo (JELLS)     
41190.135 In reply to 41190.134 
Meh. There was always the possibility that they were going to lose. He should see out the job he's been elected to do. I deserve a rest too but I'm not wealthy enough to be able to

Add THE VETOES to your myspace friends!!! Pretty please :D

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  fixrman     
41190.136 In reply to 41190.117 
quote: fixrman
How could you possibly say the all of UK had the right to allow Scotland to secede? That would have decidedly put those favour of independence at a complete and futile disadvantage.

Other than what Jon already said, you seem to assume that the rUK would interfere with Scotland's right to secede. But what about rUK's right to get rid of the whinging fuckers? Eh?

Instead of a free rUK, now there'll be another 10-15 years of whining from north of the border before another referendum. Hopefully next time all voters will be involved, as in democracy, and the fekkers will be kicked out. They can keep their fucking oil (what's left of it bwahahahahah).

truffy.gifbastard by name
bastard by nature

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 From:  fixrman  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
41190.137 In reply to 41190.136 
Quote: 
But what about rUK's right to get rid of the whinging fuckers? Eh?

There is opportunity for you there if you have the cajones for it. Start your own referendum to kick the whinging fuckers out!

Or are you whinging because they had the temerity to do something about a situation, that at least from their point of view, is not right?

Thems what asks is thems what gets. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I look forward to the referendum, perhaps it will be as riveting as the last one was.

Jon's analogy, which I answered, is not at all similar to Scotland.

 
  Did you ever see such a messed up situation in your whole life, son?
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