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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 13:25 
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)      7 of 104 
40496.7 In reply to 40496.4 
I know, I was just playing devils advocate.  My point was and is, if you intend to kill someone you can do it without owning a gun, and in most cases the victim will suffer far worse.  Yes I know guns give you the ability to kill multiple people far more easily than a bat or knife or whatever, I'm just pointing out that if the intention is there it will happen regardless.

*I didn't start this thread to belittle what happened, it's horrible and senseless. 
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)   23 May 2013 13:35 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       8 of 104 
40496.8 In reply to 40496.7 
I'm really not sure what you're point is, though. Given enough motivation, I could kill my boss with a pencil, so by that logic, we may aswell be able to keep Hellfire missiles in our boot.

Dan Herman
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 13:37 
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)      9 of 104 
40496.9 In reply to 40496.8 
My point is guns get a bad rap. 
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)   23 May 2013 13:44 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       10 of 104 
40496.10 In reply to 40496.9 
Because they kill a whole bunch of people, are designed for one purpose (Yes, some are for hunting. A 9mm Glock is not, and neither is an AR-15) and do it rather efficiently.

I think most people in the UK are happy with our limited-gun lifestyle. Ill admit, in the interests of fairness, that I'd own a gun if I could because I've enjoyed target shooting and marksmanship in the past. But, I'd rather few people get to own guns, even if that excludes myself. And certainly not automatic assault rifles, because I really can't fathom a non-law enforcement/military requirement for them.

Dan Herman
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 13:46 
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)      11 of 104 
40496.11 In reply to 40496.10 
My point is/was regardless of gun ownership, if someone intends to kill you, and I mean seriously kill you, they can and will. And I'd rather take a bullet to the mullet and have it instantly kill me rather than be beaten and suffer.
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)   23 May 2013 13:49 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       12 of 104 
40496.12 In reply to 40496.11 
You're rightm there's no arguing that - but why does the fact that, given enough effort someone can kill you anyway, mean we should legalise firearm ownership? And why should I be allowed to own an AR-15, but not, say, a mortar? Or an RPG?

Dan Herman
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 From:  milko   23 May 2013 13:55 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       13 of 104 
40496.13 In reply to 40496.1 
What a strange question. Do we have to sit quietly and let it happen? I'd opt for the cleavers if not, since it gives me a rather greater chance of escape than some bullets.
milko
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 13:56 
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)      14 of 104 
40496.14 In reply to 40496.12 
Well, in all actuality - around these parts anyway - you just don't know who might have a gun on them. That acts as a deterrent.  Do you think those guys would have accomplished what they did to that poor soldier had he been carrying a 9mm or a 45 on him?  Of course they certainly might have still killed him because even people who carry guns get killed, jumped and can't defend themselves, stuff like that. But I think in most cases you would have a better chance with a gun than without.

I agree, sorta, about the assault weapons. It's so ingrained in us that we think we have the right to own any type of gun.  I have friends who do shoot those types of things just for fun, so I can't say they have no purpose other than to kill, but that's their main purpose. I also have friends who own 50 cal. What is the purpose of a gun like that? Shooting a tank? Fucking crazy gun! But we are allowed to buy them so we do (not me, us in general).

I think if you stop and think about it, unless you're being silly, you can see the difference between an automatic weapon and a mortar or bomb or missile.  
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 13:57 
 To:  milko      15 of 104 
40496.15 In reply to 40496.13 
Yeah I don't know why I even thought about it.  When I heard it on the radio I just thought about how horrible it would be to die that way.
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 From:  milko   23 May 2013 13:58 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       16 of 104 
40496.16 In reply to 40496.14 
If that deterrent thing is true, why are there so many murders in the USA? Psk, this thread won't work.
milko
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 From:  milko   23 May 2013 13:59 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       17 of 104 
40496.17 In reply to 40496.15 
Agreed on that! I kinda hope he was dead just from the start where they apparently ran him over with their car. 

Fucking weird in all ways - crowds of people stood around in the aftermath while the two waited for the police to show up, just milling about. And that incredibly brave woman talking to them... whole thing is just surreal really.

It's not a good neighbourhood, Woolwich. 
milko
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 14:00 
 To:  milko      18 of 104 
40496.18 In reply to 40496.16 
There are a lot of murders all around the world. People kill people, that's the point.  People were being stoned to death or racked long before guns.

Sorry, it was just something I was thinking about.  I didn't start it to piss anyone off.
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 14:02 
 To:  milko      19 of 104 
40496.19 In reply to 40496.17 
People are fucking insane.  I just wish we could get along.  How hard is it to live and let live? The idea of having to kill someone because they have different ideas than you is something I will never be able to understand. 
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 From:  graphitone   23 May 2013 14:25 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       20 of 104 
40496.20 In reply to 40496.19 
I think part of the problem may well be that there's too many of us.

If we thinned out the population a bit then there'd less people around who'd want to do any killing. Also people would be more spread out. It's hard to kill anyone when you're 5 miles away from them. Unless you own mortars.

Seriously though, it's a hideous thing to take the life of another person, and responding by wanting to maim, torture and kill those responsible is equally reprehensible. Foregoing a debate on the death penalty or capital punishment, you can't just take a life for a life. S'a vicious circle innit?




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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 14:30 
 To:  graphitone      21 of 104 
40496.21 In reply to 40496.20 
Yup. I used to be in favor of the death penalty, but we've made so many mistakes, ie, killing innocent people and finding out after the fact, that I can't support it anymore.
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 From:  graphitone   23 May 2013 15:13 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       22 of 104 
40496.22 In reply to 40496.21 
The bottom line is that to be in favour of it, you've got to say it's ok to take a human life. Don't think I could ever sign up to something like that.


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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 15:18 
 To:  graphitone      23 of 104 
40496.23 In reply to 40496.22 
There are times when I think I could, and could actually probably do it. But I know I'd regret it.  There are just people we'd be better off without.  Someone who is nothing but evil and does nothing but harm others has no other purpose. Granted, they could change, but probably wouldn't. Those are the people I don't have a problem being killed.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   23 May 2013 15:38 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       24 of 104 
40496.24 In reply to 40496.3 
It does matter if you have guns or not.

Yes, if someone wants to kill someone they will probably manage it with or without guns being easily available but I still think someone has a better chance of surviving a knife attack than a gun attack.

One of the two people involved in the incident apparently had a gun. So obviously if you want to get hold of one over here it is possible, as has been mentioned many times before.

I just won't ever think legal gun ownership like in the US is ever going to be a good idea. The thought that people like those would have easier access to firearms is frightening to me. More crazy people with better access to guns is never a good state of affairs.

Whilst gun ownership might act as a deterrent I honestly believe it also results in people living in constant fear.

Then you look at the aspect of kids accidentally shooting each other. There's definitely been a number of stories like that in the news lately. What's all that about?
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)    23 May 2013 15:50 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      25 of 104 
40496.25 In reply to 40496.24 
That's all about gun owners who don't take responsibility and keep their gun locked or someplace a child can't get it.

I don't live in constant fear. I like to pretend that the mere site of me puts other people in fear. It makes me feel powerful.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   23 May 2013 15:56 
 To:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)       26 of 104 
40496.26 In reply to 40496.25 
And there's plenty of people who are totally irresponsible so not letting them near guns legally is a good thing.

If not being able to own guns legally means the irresponsible parents can't buy them and it also means it's more difficult for the crazy people to buy them I'm more than happy to be totally unarmed.

I honestly believe that if we could legally own guns over here then last night someone else would have been killed in the aftermath with the likes of the EDL making their presence known.
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