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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   
 To:  koswix     
39012.47 In reply to 39012.45 
IRC ?


Not fully decentralised, but segmented and stuff.
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 From:  koswix  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
39012.48 In reply to 39012.46 
Nah, I'm sure there was a thing where.... Maybe I imagined it :$



                                                
                                                
                                                
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      
39012.49 In reply to 39012.43 

10k, really?

 

Not that I fully understand how your theory works, but 10k isn't going to get you an inch off the ground if you want enterprise class gear.

 

Unless you don't believe in speed, reliability and redundancy.

 

 

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 From:  JonCooper  
 To:  ALL
39012.50 
the best forum software on the planet is free

and I am glad it is, hopefully that might encourage more people to use it
then I wouldn't end up on shitty hard-to-use forums
where I just give up more often than not

Jon
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)     
39012.51 In reply to 39012.49 
You're not thinking clearly.
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      
39012.52 In reply to 39012.51 
How's that then? I just don't 'get' how you think you're going to host anything mildly successful for 5 or 10k. I've installed network cards that cost that much.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)     
39012.53 In reply to 39012.52 
Well you're either exagerrating or were ripped off for that, but that's entirely beside the point.

For £10k a year I could have between 100 and 750 servers, running on industry standard equipment in world class datacenters.

And it's unlikely to actually need anywhere close to those numbers. Even considering redundant clusters and geolocation and so on.
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      
39012.54 In reply to 39012.53 

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en/sm/WF06b/3709945-3709945-4202225-3722810-3722810-3794423-3794432.html

 

I don't make things up :) And we always put 2 in for redundancy!

 

Here's some CoLo prices, too:

 

http://www.redstation.com/colocation.html

 

So, figure at least £1400pcm for a single rack in a single data centre. There's probably loads of extras you'll need too.

 

But whatever, Pete - we clearly disagree on a number of things such as "industry standard" and "world class".

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Message 39012.55 deleted 14 Oct 2011 11:29 by PILOTDAN

 From:  ANT_THOMAS  
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)     
39012.56 In reply to 39012.54 
He won't actually be buying the servers, just renting.
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  ANT_THOMAS     
39012.57 In reply to 39012.56 

Well, firstly, I don't believe you can run something that big on rented hardware. Facebook has over 800 million users.

 

Let's say you store just 500 kilobytes of data per user. That's

 

800,000,000 * 500 = 400,000,000,000 kilobytes.

 

400,000,000,000 kb = ~372 Terabytes of storage alone.

 

Secondly, even if it as all rented and managed by someone else - you're still going to pay for it!

 

I just think Pete's got his head in the clouds on this one.

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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)     
39012.58 In reply to 39012.57 
Are you forgetting the bit where there's the word decentralised?

The point being to keep any centralized aspect to an absolute minimum, and not be storing anywhere close to 500kb per user, probably not even close to 1kb, but for arguments sake, lets say 5kb.

1 billion users x 5 kb ~= 5 terabytes, or 16x320gb drives - not really that much by today's standards.

Certainly within the ~£1k a month budget I plucked out of the air earlier.
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      
39012.59 In reply to 39012.58 
Okay, I think the whole concept is a bit of a joke (So, people can only access my photo albums when I'm online, then?) but even so.

How much do you think even a little starter SAN is going to cost? Here's a nice cheap starter:

http://www.systemactive.co.uk/Buynow-id-17287-HP-LEFTHAND-P4300-G2-7-2TB-SAS-STARTER-SAN-SOLUTION-IN.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=products

That will just accommodate what you've just mentioned.
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 From:  patch  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      
39012.60 In reply to 39012.58 
Can you not upload photos to your fictional social network? (It was a social network, wasn't it? I'll admit I haven't been paying attention) Cos just one photo's going to blow your 5kb per user target out of the window.
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  patch     
39012.61 In reply to 39012.60 

I have a feeling it's going to involve some kind of peer - peer stuff where bits of data are stored on peoples machines or some such. Even ignoring the security issues there, I still think it would be horrendously unreliable and I don't know what happens with mobile stuff.

 

I just Pete has massively underestimated what it genuinely costs to run something on the scale of Facebook. I don't doubt one could write a better platform and so on, but I think they'll all get cold sharp shocks when they try and scale it into the millions of users.

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 From:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      
39012.62 In reply to 39012.58 
Pete, seriously...?
[...Insert Brain Here...]
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)     
39012.63 In reply to 39012.59 
Ok, if you go to the first post of this thread, you can see some pictures.
You can see them even when my computer is turned off - magical!


Why on earth would I buy an overpriced black box and create a single point of failure!? That's crazy. If I needed to go down the path of a centralised database, I'd use something built from the ground up to be scalable and redundant.

That's even assuming such a route is necessary - I haven't sat down and worked out specifics of what would be required, but I do think it's something that could potentially be avoidable.

As I said, the earlier £5k/£10k came from some very very rough estimates of what might be involved, simply as a theoretical example of an amount I personally would be happy to "throw away" on costs, if it would allow a real alternative to Facebook (even one only used by the people I directly care about / am connected to).

I wasn't saying "I'm going to create a billion user service for almost nothing", but I also don't agree you need to fling gold bars at HP and IBM and friends in order to run a successful service.


Your general approach here seems to be not thinking fully and/or jumping to incorrect conclusions, based on a non-existent scenario, and I'm not entirely sure why, but I'm not in the mood to keep trying to explain stuff either. :/
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)      
39012.64 In reply to 39012.63 
Right, here is the summary:

quote: You Said:
And then there's Facebook-done-right. Have you priced up the data centre space, hardware, bandwidth, power requirements for that? It might be in the region of £5k a year, but it might also be significantly less.


I'm saying it's not possible and that I can spend your budget 20 fold on a small, mediocre system.

As for pictures, they have to go somewhere. It's not really a Facebook alternative if you leave out that whole bit.

quote:
Why on earth would I buy an overpriced black box and create a single point of failure!? That's crazy. If I needed to go down the path of a centralised database, I'd use something built from the ground up to be scalable and redundant.


Yeah, I'm not going to get into SAN's. I showed you a cheap one (Which can do multi-location by the way). You need expensive ones :)
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 From:  Kenny J (WINGNUTKJ)  
 To:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)     
39012.65 In reply to 39012.64 
Don't forget Farmville, Mafia Wars, all those quiz apps and word games and zombies and pirates and flowers and whatever else it is that massed humanity occupy themselves with on Facebook...

Kenny
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 From:  Monsoir (PILOTDAN)  
 To:  Kenny J (WINGNUTKJ)     
39012.66 In reply to 39012.65 
Mind you, I would fully support those being left out.
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