War & PoliticsTottenham - what gives?

  

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 From:  Kenny J (WINGNUTKJ)   9 Aug 2011 11:41 
 To:  ALL 109 of 298 
38778.109 

Working at street level in London, over a number of years, many of us have been concerned about large groups of young adults creating their own parallel antisocial communities with different rules. The individual is responsible for their own survival because the established community is perceived to provide nothing. Acquisition of goods through violence is justified in neighbourhoods where the notion of dog eat dog pervades and the top dog survives the best. The drug economy facilitates a parallel subculture with the drug dealer producing more fiscally efficient solutions than the social care agencies who are too under-resourced to compete.


Meanwhile, my company has booked me into a different hotel, without me having to ask them to.
Kenny
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   9 Aug 2011 11:48 
 To:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)      110 of 298 
38778.110 In reply to 38778.108 
I think trying to judge this shit morally is pretty dumb. People don't riot for no reason and if it were a simple case of people finding rioting fun and/or just following the herd then, well, it'd be happening all the time. Regardless of whether it's an appropriate response I think it's fair to say that if you have rioting then there's an underlying problem which needs sorting out.

I also don't remember the Poll Tax rioters in 1990 getting anything like such prejudiced coverage from the media and reaction from the public. Presumably because when it's the middle classes getting fucked over they have some sympathy from people like you.
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 From:  wakeupbomb   9 Aug 2011 12:28 
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38778.111 
http://catchalooter.tumblr.com/
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 From:  koswix   9 Aug 2011 12:50 
 To:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)      112 of 298 
38778.112 In reply to 38778.108 

What xen said, reaally.

 

I don't think there's much use in excusing or condemning it, it needs to be understood and explained so that it can be dealt with and the root causes 'fixed'

 

(i still.favour revolution, though)


GIVE ME EYERON OR! :@ msg:38140.1
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 From:  Ken (SHIELDSIT)   9 Aug 2011 13:01 
 To:  koswix      113 of 298 
38778.113 In reply to 38778.112 
So you can become American?


A Blog
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 From:  Mouse   9 Aug 2011 13:08 
 To:  koswix      114 of 298 
38778.114 In reply to 38778.112 

Exactly, when people are talking about the root cause the response is always, "That's no excuse!" It's not about an excuse or legitimising what happened. It's about what are the steps that have caused this to happen and what can we change to stop it happening again

 

Oh, and these guys are dicks.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6Gex_ya4-Oo%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&feature=youtu.be&v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&gl=GB


Roses are bollocks, Violets are crud, I hate bloody flowers, And much prefer mud.
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 From:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)   9 Aug 2011 13:14 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      115 of 298 
38778.115 In reply to 38778.110 

This seems to have all started from an yet-unresolved killing in Tottenham (incidentally, just up the road from a friend of mine..). I don't know what the participants to the disturbances (I don't mean the initial protesters concerned with the killing and the associated investigations) are actually acting on as far as reasons go, but they don't seem to be actually rioting about anything in particular hence my lack of sympathy.

 

I don't mean to say that they're doing it purely because "it's fun", what I mean is that even though there might be a root cause (perceived poverty, isolation and social injustice, etc) that doesn't justify what they're actually doing - ie mindless smashing, looting, and starting to get violent with ordinary citizens now too.

[...Insert Brain Here...]
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)   9 Aug 2011 13:31 
 To:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)      116 of 298 
38778.116 In reply to 38778.115 
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Except it's not, is it.

The killing was the flashpoint but it is not the reason.

quote:
they don't seem to be actually rioting about anything in particular


This is based on your extensive interviews with rioters and knowledge/research regarding their living conditions, culture and history, yeah? On what basis do you expect to have an understanding if you don't attempt to understand?

It's not about judging, as you are still continuing to do:

quote:
mindless smashing, looting, and starting to get violent with ordinary citizens


quote:
perceived poverty


I mean come on, you're looking at this from the luxury of massive privilege and not even accepting that other people might have such a different experience of life that their value system might be both alien to yours and, in context, valid. Either attempt to understand causes (not to excuse or blame, that comes after understanding) or stop pretending that you're doing anything other than offering a more right wing parody of some Daily Mail editorial.
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 From:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)   9 Aug 2011 13:49 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      117 of 298 
38778.117 In reply to 38778.116 

No I haven't interviewed anyone, and I do agree that someone should at least try to figure out what they're after.

 

The point of "perceived" was that this is what they think - their relative point of view might be entirely valid as far as they're concerned and their situations preceding these 'riots' might well be because of bad government or what/ever/ else.

 

What I'm trying to say (albeit in a possibly nutcase kind of way) is that their reaction seems to be out of proportion to what's happening to them. I didn't say "send them to Africa to learn how lucky they are!" or "shoot them all!" or anything like that. Despite this happening quite close to me last night (and therefore feeling slightly unsafe), I'm not prone to going for extreme solutions like that because they simply almost never work.

 

Then again, the government went to war in Iraq with very little proof. Lead by example my a$$. (yeah ok completely different situation, I know)

[...Insert Brain Here...]
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   9 Aug 2011 14:02 
 To:  ALL 118 of 298 
38778.118 

I've not read this thread because it seems quite long now and I was BANNED :@

 

But yeah....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

 

Really?!
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)   9 Aug 2011 14:04 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      119 of 298 
38778.119 In reply to 38778.118 

"it's the government's fault, yeah, dunno"

 

FFS!

bastard by name, bastard by nature
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 From:  koswix   9 Aug 2011 14:05 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      120 of 298 
38778.120 In reply to 38778.118 
Class war!

GIVE ME EYERON OR! :@ msg:38140.1
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)   9 Aug 2011 14:08 
 To:  koswix      121 of 298 
38778.121 In reply to 38778.120 
They wanna riot, a riot of their own.

(but they didn't seem to be too sure as to what the govt. was...must've been overcome with the alcohol emotion)

bastard by name, bastard by nature
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 From:  steve   9 Aug 2011 14:09 
 To:  ALL 122 of 298 
38778.122 
A mob has gathered in Bournemouth and Mcdonalds has been closed! :O

I'm at a friend's house this evening, I shall drive through town on the way home to make sure it's not on fire before I park up and walk to my flat! >.<
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   9 Aug 2011 14:10 
 To:  steve      123 of 298 
38778.123 In reply to 38778.122 
I'm still living in hope that the people of Manchester will have at least some sense.
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 From:  koswix   9 Aug 2011 14:15 
 To:  ALL 124 of 298 
38778.124 
At least this old woman has got the right idea:


GIVE ME EYERON OR! :@ msg:38140.1
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 From:  Serg (NUKKLEAR)   9 Aug 2011 14:30 
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)      125 of 298 
38778.125 In reply to 38778.118 
^ that... Yeah of course that might not be all the participants' point of view, but still, it doesn't show them in a relatively good light, does it?
[...Insert Brain Here...]
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 From:  steve   9 Aug 2011 15:53 
 To:  ANT_THOMAS      126 of 298 
38778.126 In reply to 38778.123 
I was going into town anyway for coffee with my friend, she worked opposite Mcdonalds and nothing at all.

Massive atmosphere in town though: a metal bin fell off a lorry and the entire street 'jumped' and went silent. Everybody is talking about it. I can kind of see how the social media rumours can be massively unhelpful, there was no riot in town (nothing major, just kids gathering and shouting and a few police getting them away) but Twitter and Facebook are both full of 'Bournemouth riots!' now which can't help the situation.
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 From:  ANT_THOMAS   9 Aug 2011 15:57 
 To:  steve      127 of 298 
38778.127 In reply to 38778.126 
Same with Manchester now, seems there's a #ManchesterRiots hashtag doing the rounds, not helpful at all. Though GMPolice are on twitter giving the facts it seems.
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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)   9 Aug 2011 16:37 
 To:  steve      128 of 298 
38778.128 In reply to 38778.126 
Yeah, been trying to sift through stuff and it's a pain. Some people say stuff, then others say "no I've just been there it's fine".


There's been rumours of stuff happening near enough me to be worried, but only thing confirmed is a bike store and Richer Sounds store both being looted last night - everything today is just a rumour.

I'll be perfectly safe if I stay where I am - residential area not on the main road nor too near shops - but at some point I need to go out for food. :/
Except for rumours that shops are all shut, so it probably makes sense to just go visit my family a few days earlier than I was already planning to.

Except that requires going through Purley, and Twitter is saying:

quote:
I heard it's kicking off in Purley is this true??
3 minutes ago

@DapperDan I got home safe and sound!! No problem but shops are shut on Purley high street just as a precaution.
8 minutes ago

Tesco Purley has NOT been looted. Closed as a precaution
9 minutes ago

All the shops, petrol stations and restaurants in Purley were closed and shuttered at 3.30pm. Not a good sign.
15 minutes ago

Bare traffic in purley
21 minutes ago



I don't want to go sit in traffic if things are going to kick off down there. :/

But it probably is just precautions and rumours, and normal afternoon traffic (it's always busy there).
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