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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  ALL
34140.1 
I want to learn myself it. I have some questions:

Should I learn C++ or C#? I've narrowed it down to those two after plenty of consideration. C++ is obviously more established but (my impression from reading around is that) C# is better in use because it's been designed from the ground up rather than grown organically over 20-whatever years, and is therefore more suited to present-day uses. Is that perception roughly right?

In which case it would seem to be sensible to go for C#?

Other than confirmation/information about the above, I'm looking for an IDE. I do not like the MS ones whether it be those cut-down ones I forget the name of or the full Visual Studio. I've tried it several times and just don't get on with it. I think it's like (for me) trying to learn html via dreamweaver - too much is hidden and so I learn nothing.

I need a simpler environment, one where I have to type things myself so I know what's going on. One that doesn't do too much for me but does do the rigth things for me.

I realise Visual Studio might well be the best IDE, when you know the language and understand what it's doing for you. But it's not what I'm looking for currently, so what's good?

Oh, another consideration for both points... I always liked Flash/actionscript because it was very forgiving - how something was coded always mattered less than the ideas. I think this will continue to be the case with the stuff I want to make. It might be quite badly coded (obviously not intentionally, I just mean that perfect code is not my primary concern) but hopefully the ideas and the result will make up for that. So I want something flexible/robust enough to work well with that approach. Something where I can cobble my ideas together quickly to see how they work/look and then worry about coding them well if they work like they did in my head. Something where I can 'sketch' (i.e.: code in that way).

(I realise Processing.org is intended to be exactly that but it's just lacking in the meaty stuff I want. It basically suffers from being Java. I don't get on with Java).

Thanks in advance for any advice.

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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
34140.2 In reply to 34140.1 
Should I learn C++ or C#?


Neither. Learn VB and CF. You can thank me later.

----
some things never change

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 From:  af (CAER)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
34140.3 In reply to 34140.2 
Nobody will thank you for recommending VB.
Caer
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 From:  THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
34140.4 In reply to 34140.1 
I (predictably) recommend C#. I've used at least 25 different programming languages in my career, and C# is easily the best. The latest version (3.0 aka 2008) is awesome. Also, you can use it to code Windows apps, web apps, web services, Silverlight 2.0 stuff, so it's a learn-once, use-many language.

C++ is very, very unforgiving, difficult and counter-intuitive, and you generally need to write 50 lines of code before you start writing your code.

I use Visual Studio 2008 and get on really well with it, so I can't suggest an alternative. It's only real competitor is SharpDevelop, which is essentially an open-source copy of Visual Studio, so I'd question whether you'd like it any better. You could always try it. Failing that, I use UltraEdit for general purpose editing, which does C# syntax highlighting, or you could get the UEStudio version which will also integrate with the compiler etc.

I'd imagine you'd be interested in Silverlight 2.0, which is sort of like Flex but you code it in C#, in which case you might want to play with the Expression Blend 2.5 preview, which lets you do the Flash-style design-y and animate-y stuff and keep the actual code separate.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need the money; Work when people are watching.
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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  af (CAER)     
34140.5 In reply to 34140.3 
Or CF for that matter. Except Peter.

----
some things never change

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 From:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
34140.6 In reply to 34140.5 
Why would I thank you for recommending an application server to someone wanting to do meaty graphical stuff?
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 From:  THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)  
 To:  Peter (BOUGHTONP)     
34140.7 In reply to 34140.6 
Because as a CF developer you should be grateful for any tiny little crumbs you get.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need the money; Work when people are watching.
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 From:  Rowan  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
34140.8 In reply to 34140.1 
C#, because as Rendle says C++ is the devil's work. Seriously, though, just use Visual Studio, you big freak.
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  ALL
34140.9 

Thank you for your informations. I shall think on all this.

 

Is Mono shit?


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 From:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
34140.10 In reply to 34140.9 

Of course stereo's betterer, but if you want to hear Caruso sing you have to put up with mono.

 

Sorry, them's the breaks :((

----
some things never change

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 From:  THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
34140.11 In reply to 34140.9 
Mono is a bit behind now because of .NET 3.5 and C# 3.0, and they've diverted some resource to work on the Moonlight project (Silverlight for Linux). But that's more exciting anyway...

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need the money; Work when people are watching.
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 From:  william  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
34140.12 In reply to 34140.10 
Also the Feelgood's classic album Down by the Jetty.
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  99% of gargoyles look like (MR_BASTARD)     
34140.13 In reply to 34140.10 
(hugleft)

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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)     
34140.14 In reply to 34140.4 

I'm not really bothered about Silverlight. It seems a bit confused as to what it is but (and everyone tells me this is wrong but it's the impression I'm left with every time I look into it) it seems to be a Flash competitor.

 

I don't think anything with displace Flash on the web for a long time. SVG was going to, then went nowhere (or became silverlight maybe).

 

Flash didn't succeed because of its technology and capabilities (it was shit) or it's code or syntax (they were shit), it succeeded because the editing environment offered an alternative valid paradigm - the way it tied drawn and coeded elements together. This is what I miss by far the most when I try any other sort of coding. The visual stuff and the coded stuff do not have the explicit and explorable relationships that Flash enforced.

 

So yeah, if I wanted to do the sorts of things Silverlight is doing I'd probably do them in flash rather than learn a whole new thing which nobody in the whole world has the plugin for (yeah I realise it can do desktop stuff too, and while that's interesting, I have no interest whatsoever in making desktop apps).

 

What I actually want to do is graphical stuff mainly in 3d. Anything 2d I want to do I can do in Flash but I've had the urge to do 3d stuff lately (explorable stuff). Flash can do 3d, probably to a standard I'd be happy with, but it's slow as fuck. But doing 3d any other way seems hugely overcomplicated. There doesn't seem to be a /good/ free 3d(+physics and sound and stuff all in the same place) engine. And with not knowing the languages they tend to use it's hard to choose between the non-good ones. So my plan is: get a grasp of a language (probably c#) and then pick a 3d engine and play with it.


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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
34140.15 In reply to 34140.14 
Unity looks fucking ideal but it's only available (presently) for fucking Macs. And while I can install fucking OSX my wireless card doesn't fucking work.

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 From:  THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)  
 To:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)     
34140.16 In reply to 34140.14 
Check out Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF). It's got very good 3D support, it's quite straight-forward and you can code it in C#.

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need the money; Work when people are watching.
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 From:  Drew (X3N0PH0N)  
 To:  THERE IS NO GOD BUT (RENDLE)     
34140.17 In reply to 34140.16 
Thank you, I will.

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