Both Xrandr and Xorg are created by the same people

There is no option for xrandr to output its changes in an xorg.conf compatible fashion.

:@

I thought xorg was deprecated?

They can deprecate all they like, but until they produce a functional replacement it ain't going away.

Ask someone how to port a xorg.conf across to Wayland, you'll get a blank stare and/or muttering about compositors, but no actual answer.

Likewise, ask how to do what xrandr does, and if you're lucky the blank stare might be followed by a mention of wlr-randr - a tool created by a non-Wayland developer who was fed up by the lack of such a tool, but which currently only implements a fraction of what xrandr does.

The state of Wayland is shocking given that it's been in development for like 15 years now.

Every now and again I give it another pop. And every time it's buggy, crashy and lacking in features.

I dunno what you are using it for, it's rock steady on stock Fedora 40 workstation for me. I've been using it about 7 months. Prior to that I was using xorg on earlier server releases with xfce. I initially missed some of the xfce widgets, but apart from being cool, are hardly necessary. I followed the wayland controversy for a while and maybe resisted adopting it. Some peeps get mighty riled up about it. I guess if it had nuked some essential-to-me feature, I would have gone back to what worked.

If you do much gaming or screen recording/streaming it's quite broken. Performance is *still* worse than X, and games will randomly crash or have strange issues.

On top of its just being a stupid design. I tried Gnome out to see if things were any better outside of (what used to be called) WMs (they're not). Went to take a screenshot and my screenshot tool didn't work. Because, of course, something as basic as a screenshot tool is "compositor"-specific.

It's fine for very basic usage - web browsers, terminals, desktop applications - but it falls down if you try to do anything beyond that. The fact that screen recording *still* doesn't work right, especially if you're working with both wayland and xwayland clients, is kinda shocking. But again, it's all per-compositor.

It's a stupid design which only makes sense in an environment where you don't trust your software, I can only assume it was designed with phones in mind rather than desktop computers. *And* it still doesn't work.

Meanwhile, X works great.

I hardly feel I'm in a position to comment. I stopped taking an active interest in the development of Linux and its parts just about the time there were stirrings about an extraordinarily horribly named thing called Wayland. I run 2 raspberry Pi boxes with Raspbian that I occasionally update and prod. One is just there to run Apache and some Samba shares to backup the various Windows machines around the house. The other has the snap for my Nextcloud server and I really ought to take more care of it. My music PC will shortly become a Linux computer as it won't update to Windows 11, so I may be more interested then. The point of this ramble is, where does the pressure to move to Wayland come from? Seems to me, from what I can make out, that the pressure is from the corporate world and developers with a corporate view of things.

Am I misguided about that? It just seems to me that the obsession with the supposed insecurity of xorg (as witnessed by the plethora of x11 viruses) is exactly what litigation-averse corporate types worry about. As a bonus, Wayland wipes out a multitude of interesting and useful things that that xorg offers. The last thing a corporate IT department wants is developers doing interesting and useful things that aren't controlled from the top, or that may not focus on the margin.

Oh right. That's why I run Win10 in dual-boot for gaming (triple-boot with Win7 bare metal on board, which I've pretty much stopped using since I switched it to virtualbox on Fedora, with considerable performance and stability gains).

Are you running games through Wine or are they linux-native (is there such a thing) ?

I don't think I'd try Wayland desktop on a low-power box like a Pi, I would probably go command-line, especially for Apache and file-sharing. I'm not really familiar with Wayland and all its talking points, I decided to try it after running x for many years, and I can't say I've been disappointed. Maybe it's too bad that corporate interests (IBM, née RedHat) have taken over great swaths of Linux development, and bent it to their needs. OTOH there seems to be a paucity of developers who will work for free.

First commit Sep 2008, first release Feb 2012, API stability Jul 2013.

:/

Long before Wayland reaches a satisfactory level, it'll have been replaced by SystemD's display server..

I mainly run everything headless anyway. The default for Raspbian (Debian) is now Wayland, although you can choose to switch back to x11 with the raspi-config tool. I'm running x on both machines at present but neither of them are on the latest distro. I suppose I should update my Nextcloud box as this is pointing at the web.

I have no idea how IBM run their Redhat business: probably every bit as heartlessly as any other vast corporation. I used to have a lot of time for the IBM people I worked with who all seemed pretty decent people. But then again, that was mainly on DB2, and DB2 is a world within a world at IBM, and a huge number of the staff are enthusiasts who love working with DB2.

Linux gaming is amazing currently.

There are some Linux native games but game devs really don't know what they're doing with Linux so Proton (Valve's Wine fork) is usually preferable.

Virtually everything on Steam runs in Proton. The only exceptions tend to be stuff with very invasive anti-cheat. There is support for that in Proton but the dev has to toggle it on.

Everything else runs great. Generally within singe digits fps of Windows performance, sometimes better than Windows, and improving constantly.

I game a lot and I've not touched Windows for well over ten years.

The Steam Deck has helped too. Virtually everything was running in Proton anyway, but now devs care about Proton performance.
 

Haha. I'd kinda welcome that. Much as systemd can be annoying at times, their shit *works*.

Wow. I must try that!

Except when it deletes your entire home directory, refuses to shutdown, falls-back to Google DNS servers, misuses private Google time servers, etc...

The google DNS servers was a weird choice, yeah. The rest I've never encountered.

In what situation does it delete your home directory? :')

Do you have to be using homed?

Call me insane but, I have this hunch Peter is not your average Linux user.

I don't believe it was dependent on homed (there's no mention of that being the case).

It's caused in v256 by trying to remove temporary files with a tool called "systemd-tmpfiles" which is described as "systemd-tmpfiles, systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service, systemd-tmpfiles-setup-dev.service, systemd-tmpfiles-clean.service, systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer - Creates, deletes and cleans up volatile and temporary files and directories"

If a user decided to use --purge to clean up those files, but doesn't know that this tool also manages the /home directory by default, that's their fault for not reading the entire man page and every config file it mentions to discover this. (Of course, there was no mention of it managing /home in the man page, and even after the issue was raised and closed it still doesn't explicitly mention that but dances around with things like "Historically, it was designed to manage volatile and temporary files, as the name suggests, but it provides generic file management functionality and can be used to manage any kind of files".)

There was also another bug in an earlier release, if using systemd-tmpfiles in the intended way, which destroys the entire root partition, because the incompetent programmers allowed "/path/.*" to not just match dotfiles, but also match "/path/.."

In both cases, there wasn't just the bug, there was a shitty reaction, claiming there's no issue and blaming the person raising the issue, rather than just shutting up and fixing it.

> Call me insane but, I have this hunch Peter is not your average Linux user.

*shrug* I try to pay at least superficial attention to what major parts of my system are doing - not entirely through choice but because it seems to be the only way to keep it being somewhat my system.

Three decades ago paying attention to what things do wouldn't have been atypical amongst people using Linux systems?

Again, I'm very out of the loop with all things Linux, but it didn't take me long to discover a very abrasive relationship between some in the Linux world and the systemd devs. It also seemed likely that this is in part (at least) to the social skills/attitudes/agenda of Lennart Poettinger. 

I accidentally nuked my downloads directory (of ~4-5 years worth of assorted downloads) a few months back. It had stuff I wish I could recover, but rm -rf is pretty fucking final. I was trying to do a backup of it but lost track of which directory I was working in. Gone.