eBay/paypal has the money so they get to make the rules

>> So why is the Buyer contacting the Seller? <<

because that is his easiest option, eBay has my money, if I don't fix this they will just give it back to him
 

Glad I don't buy/sell stuff through ebay.

it's usually ok, I've been using the site for over 15 years with very few issuse

>>This isn't that difficult, guys. Stop reading more into it than necessary, eBay be damned.

Point is that, under UK consumer law at least, you sign to say a package has been received, not that it's in any given condition or free from damage.

Now obviously the buyer is an asshat for signing for anything when it was clearly fucked, but I know plenty of people who could and would be pressurised into signing for it. Woudn't even be surprised if the courier tried it on saying "you're just signing to say it's received, you'll need to fill out a claim form  to get it sorted".

I've also had couriers turn up at my flat door (2nd floor) with their handheld computermabob asking me to sign for stuff that they haven't even got out of the van yet "wanted to make sure you were in before I lugged it up here" is the usual excuse). I'm always doubly suspicious when they try that!

I logged into my eBay and curiously there is no mention of what happens when a package is received damaged, only mention is damaged merchandise.

I'd contact eBay via Email then call eBay and get someone on the phone, if that is possible. Regardless, the buyer's beef would have been with the shipper, but he clearly neglected to properly note damage in shipping. To me, that is a dick move if he figured he could just shove it back on you due to vague or non-existent eBay policy for Damage in Transit. I suspect they have no policy because they know at that point it is out of their control.

Having been a shipping clerk myself, I can tell you by the looks of the packaging, it was insufficiently packed for transit. If you will rise up in righteous indignation at that conclusion, then revert back to the Buyer's failing to note Transit damage and come to a conclusion there.

Good luck with it.

I was a shipping clerk long time ago. Interesting trade.

>> Point is that, under UK consumer law at least, you sign to say a package has been received, not that it's in any given condition or free from damage. <<

I find that very hard to believe. With all the rules and regulations the U.K. has (not that we don't have as many or more) it is inconceivable to me that Consumer Law does not address this.

I don't know how Jon shipped the parcel, but: Mail
 

Until they changed everything in the buyers favor.  I've had an eBay account for ages and stopped selling anything once I started getting scammed like you are.  You have no power, but the buyer sure does.  He's about to get a free lathe from you and you can't do anything about it!  The burden of proof is 100% on you when it shouldn't be!  Fuck eBay.

It was a brand new purpose bought box and contained a lot more bubble-wrap etc when it left here.

This really isn't about laws and regulations and suchlike, eBay's policy is "buyers are happy or the seller sorts it out"

They have frozen my money, I can't touch it until this is fixed, it's eBay's game and you have to play by eBay rules.

Obviously laws and regulations etc over-rule eBay, but that's a long-term much-hassle route, for now at least it's down to me to sort it out.

Find it as hard as you like, but if you look up there ^^^ you'll see the post I made quoting the Unfair Contract Terms with reference to couriers, linked back to the UK Gov website.

Royal Mail is governed by totally separate laws and rules to couriers as they provide a regulated postal service, however after a good scan of that link I didn't see anything about signatures invalidating claims.

'Tis true the EU favors statutory consumer protections over buyer beware.

Jon, I understand what you are saying, about the box being new, etc. But just because you had a new box and bubble wrap doesn't mean that that the packaging was adequate.

Something that it heavy, particularly if it is irregularly shaped, is not easy to package. I'd have used two cartons for that parcel, and I'd have packed it so that there was no way for the wieght inside to move. Movement = breakage. I learned that early on. I didn;t want to be responsible for damaged packages, so I learned early on how to make them impervious to transit damage. Even the packages I exported to Canada made it without bursting. But that was my profession at the time, it is certainly unreasonable to expect a casual shipper to package professionally.

I'd probably find another way to sell from here o out were it mean, Doesn't worth it.

Every Bill of Lading I ever signed contained the words, Received in Good condition By______________. Woe betide to the blighter who signed for a shredded package such as in the image Jon posted.

We can't know if the packaging was adequate, because the photo is meaningless unless it was taken on the receiver's doorstep at the moment of delivery. As it is, there are several possibilities:
- the package and contents were damaged after it was signed for
- the buyer wanted the lathe so bad he signed for the visibly, badly damaged package hoping it would be ok.
- someone indifferent to the damaged state of the package (child/neighbor/landlord) signed for it.

It is true though that packages are roughly handled, and ones with fragile/heavy contents (like machinery) have to be crafted to withstand a lot of punishment.

I understand what you are saying. But as a person who spent 4 years packaging heavy materials handling parts and equipment, I can tell you that most people who don't do a lot of that type of packaging do not do it properly. It is just the way it is.

For example - and this is not just hindsight here or second-guessing - I have already said that I would have double-boxed an item like that. There would have been at least a 1" protective layer of cardboard on the bottom, sides and top. I most likely would have cut cardboard shims or used expandable foam to pack the item in (the canned type will work). The key is to make sure that the heavy item cannot move, cannot puncture the sides.

I have sent electric motors, steering boxes, heavy shafts/axles and any number of odd combinations of things all across the United States and into Canada. Packing well means no problems. I didn't have problems with package damage, the only problem was package loss, claimed by the receiver to the Carrier when the item was not received within the expected time frame. Usually this ends up being a mis-delivered package that someone keeps because they feel lucky. Perhaps they can even use the item, who knows. These days, packages are a bit easier to track.

In the end run, either the package was packed properly or it was roughly handled. Maybe a comination of a bit of the two. Now knowing how shitty eBay's policy seems to be, at least in the U.K. (I'd bet U.S. is similar), it would give me pause to sell on eBay in the future.

I sold two cars on eBay, but those were picked up by the buyers. As a matter of fact, one of the vehicles I sold was a rusted-out Nissan B2000 pickmeup truck that I listed as a parts vehicle. The fuel tank cradle was rotted out, but the purchaser insisted on driving it home so, at his request, I used some strapping bands to help secure it. I still recommended a flat bed, but he did drive it home and loved the truck. Why, I'll never know.

The Ford Escort I sold to a young kid whose dad came with him because it had to be titled by the father due to the son's age. It was a manual shift, something he did not know how to drive. I offered instruction that was refused. Poor decision on sonny's part, because he was starting out in 3rd gear. I tried one last time to show him, but I was told he knew what he was doing. 15 minutes later I got a call from the dad that "we" had a problem. When I asked what the problem was, the dad said the car won't move and smells like something is on fire (I knew he had smoked the clutch and had predicted it to the father). I told him that that wasn't "our" problem, it was their problem, as they had declined driving instruction. He asked me for help and I gave it: The number of a reliable flatbed towing company. So the $400.00 vehicle needed $450.00 worth of repairs before it had even been driven 5 miles. Priceless.

By the way, both gave me excellent ratings prior to collecting their merchandise.  ;-)

>> - the package and contents were damaged after it was signed for << Likely. Part of the lathe was bent, indicating it had been dropped by somebody - could have been the Carrier.

>> - the buyer wanted the lathe so bad he signed for the visibly, badly damaged package hoping it would be ok.<< Plausible, but very dumb. In that case, take the lumps for being a dope in trying to push hope into a rope.

>>- someone indifferent to the damaged state of the package (child/neighbor/landlord) signed for it.<< Shouldn't think so, but still possible. A delivery exception could have/should have been made. I'd be looking into that and asking for Proof of Delivery.

All in all it is a sad deal all around.

 

I have sold loads on eBay, always been praised for packaging, indeed this guy has praised the packaging of the bits that actually arrived. The lathe was dismantled and individual parts wrapped independently, the whole box was stuffed to the gills with additional packaging and bubble-wrap.

Today he has contacted me saying this problem is between me and the carrier (which is also eBay's thinking unfortunately), he thinks I should just refund his whole £77 now and deal with the carrier myself.

I have replied that I am not happy to do anything at all until the carrier has had a chance to respond. his money is safe (eBay/paypal have it) but that he has made the situation much worse than it need have been by signing for it 'undamaged' and so he needs to wait and see.

*IF* the carrier pays out then he will get his money back of course, but if not then I intend to argue that he should have refused the delivery, failing that he could have accepted but marked it as 'packaging severely damaged, contents not inspected'.

I think the most likely outcome is eBay will give him his money back and I will be left to argue with eBay and possibly fight with the carrier using info from this thread (thanks) regarding signatures being about delivery, not condition. I may lose that too. :(
 

I have seen the inside of so many delivery vans that not matter how well the items were packed they would have arrived damaged.

Night Freight, the same company who delivered our fireworks years ago, were delivering a corner wall cupboard for an MFI kitchen that didn't turn up with the rest of the kitchen.The back of the van looked like a bomb had gone off in there. The driver was stepping on parcels, throwing them around trying yo find what he was looking for. When he did find it he threw it from the front of the van, over some other parcels, to the back door. Surprise surprise it was damaged

oh, and just to amuse you guys, I also sold an old mini on the same day for £107, the buyer drove 326 miles each way to collect, taking a total of approx 14 hours and said "Absolutely brill purchase so pleased very friendly and helpful"

this is the mini ....

Brilliant :D