I think it's indicative of a certain kind of hard-left thinking that they haven't actually considered that they are in a position where they have the possibility that their actions could really make a change.

I started off as a No-leaning "don't know" - I have an English girlfriend who works a lot in Scotland, and my work means I spend large chunks of time in the offices of financial institutions in England. Chances are that that will all change in the event of independence. In theory, it should be in my best interests to vote No, but the more I see and hear, the more I realise that I am a Yes voter.

Also, Chuck D says Yes.

Haha. I'm sure that's part of it. I do sympathise though, I don't like the idea of further dividing us up, creating more borders and artificial distinctions between the people over here and the people over there. The more we think of ourselves as similar and as belonging to the same community the better, I think.

But yeah, the border already exists, independence just recognises that, it doesn't create extra division it just recognises that one exists and tries to handle it better. The best rational Yes argument is that Scotland votes differently to England and independence would give you the government you want (and one which would actually put your interests and requirements first).

(Personally I'm more swayed by the emotional stuff. It's about the dignity and self-respect that comes with self-determination).

edit: Oh and the Chuck D thing is great, will be sharing that.

Which led me to this!

I'm really hoping Scotland votes Yes and does a really good job of running a more just society and fair government. Then more people in England see that and think "I want our government to be that good" and we actually do something about it and vote a good government in. Or at least force better policies.

Amen brother.

I've lived most of my life under a government I've either not voted for myself or that my family hasn't voted for. Scotland buggering off to be independent makes that more likely to happen. So that, for me, is a crap argument to use in favour of independence. It would be interesting to see how many Scottish yes voters were in favour of changing the voting system in the uk.

It's a good argument *for Scotland*. We don't get a vote, like.

It's not just about Scotland though is it. This decision will affect the rest of us too. And while the no campaign has been fucktardidly negative, the yes campaign has reeked of "we don't vote for the Tories, we're going to fuck off and take what we want from the rest of you and to hell with it all because we don't like it. And if you don't give us what we want, well fuck you all in the ear". The whole process has been as far from edifying and positive as anything I can think of in recently. At least when devolution was discussed and voted in the positives were argued for effectively. This just stinks.

Post #6

Not that devolution. The 1998 debate. That was good. This is all shit.

I've always been happy to describe myself as British but the whole Englishness thing has got out of hand. Might have to be welsh from now on.

OK, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I prefer to think of myself as English rather than British.

It is just about Scotland in that Scotland is deciding what is best for Scotland. It affects us, of course, but we've had our chance. After decades (or centuries) of misrule and negligence one can hardly blame them for not being overly concerned with how their decision will affect us.

I think you're mis-characterising the Yes campaign. From what I've seen it's about having a government for Scotland which is appropriate to Scotland and acts in Scotland's interests.

Also the idea that the rest of the UK would have a permanent Tory government is a bit bollocks after looking into it a bit. We're losing 59 parliamentary seats out of 650 (before the inevitable restructuring). That would've changed the result of very few recent elections.

Bollocks. Until thatcher, the scots voted in their droves for a Conservative party so if they've been the victim of decades of misrule, it's as much Scottish voters' fault as the rest of the uk. And centuries? Because, of course, the working class/women/minorities in England have had the vote for centuries and absolutely condemned Scotland to poverty.

I don't believe for a minute that Scotland has suffered any more than vast tracts of Northern England, wales, the midlands, etc. separating out Scotland for special consideration is a nonsense. Fuck it, let's just have a revolution.

I didn't suggest that the misrule of Scotland was the Tories fault, it happens regardless of which party is in power because Westminster cares about London then the South East then other major cities then the north then Scotland then everywhere else. Scotland is a distinct cultural an political entity which votes distinctly differently from England and Wales, as that distinct entity, never gets the government it votes for nor the attention or concern it deserves. Similar arguments can be made for the rest of the UK but I really don't get why the prospect of Scotland choosing for itself to try to make its own lot better bothers you so much.

I think that what bothers me has been the whole tone of it all. Salmond and his lot come over as a bunch of twats who's whole argument seems to be based on "fuck you English bastards, we're off with the pound and all the oil and you can't stop us. And then we'll live in a socialist paradise" (which they won't because salmond et al are still politicians). The no lot are just as fucktarded and have only managed to come up with "well, if you go then DISASTER awaits".

Cameron should've agreed to allow a proper debate on devolving powers that the whole country could have benefitted from.

As an aside, I don't buy the argument re london and the south east. There are big parts of the area where there's a ridiculous amount of depravation and poverty. The investment is the city of London outwards to where the rich live so west London, Surrey, the m4 corridor. Kent is still just outside the bit that people move to on account of it being to the south east. So places like dartford are split, one half of the town is all council estates and unemployment. Bits of rural kent are admittedly lovely but then the same is true anywhere else in the uk. Generally, Britain today makes the rich richer wherever they live.

Really? So all those MPs from outside London and the SE flagrantly give up on representing their constituents as soon as they enter the hallowed portals of Westminster? Rotten scoundrels, the lot of them! :@

No, they're just fighting an uphill battle.

Yes, I can see that, what with being massively outnumbered by the MPs from the SE