To AV or not to AV

From: Drew (X3N0PH0N) 5 May 2011 08:29
To: johngti_mk-ii 56 of 115

I don't think anyone's dissing teachers particularly, they're asked to do an impossible job because the system is fucked from top to bottom. We have a enlightenment/early industrial education system in a postmodern/post-industrial/information-driven world, and it's not at all appropriate.

 

Having said that, in my experience, the vast majority of teachers were shit.

EDITED: 5 May 2011 08:29 by X3N0PH0N
From: Drew (X3N0PH0N) 5 May 2011 08:32
To: johngti_mk-ii 57 of 115
Also, whether the job is a difficult one or not has nothing to do with whether anyone is any good at it or not.
From: DrBoff (BOFF) 5 May 2011 09:07
To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) 58 of 115
quote:
I don't think anyone's dissing teachers particularly


Understatement of the day.
From: Mouse 5 May 2011 09:16
To: ALL59 of 115
Where do I vote to show my appreciation of teachers? I am not one but see friends who are working bloody hard. They're important!


(obligatory 6 week holiday comment)
EDITED: 5 May 2011 09:16 by MOUSE
From: Dave!! 5 May 2011 09:54
To: Mouse 60 of 115
I'd like to know too. Sure there are some crap teachers, but there's also plenty of good ones too. Admittedly I'm biased as my mum was a teacher, but I often remember her working until 9pm on marking and preparation stuff.
From: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 5 May 2011 12:20
To: johngti_mk-ii 61 of 115
I had just finished a long reply, then this piece of shit Android rubbish killed it on me. :@ :@

Summarised version...

Fuck off! I never mentioned teachers at all. Nobody insulted teachers.

Teachers, like all people, come in all shapes and sizes. Some are good, some are bad.

My rant is against the structure/model used, not against those that are (mostly) doing their best with what we have.

It's not about blaming anyone (except the shit governments who don't care about it), it's just a bad system that evolved this way over time.

I see the attitude of "stupid is ok" as a sign of the problem, not the cause.


I might have had something else, but I can't remember it if I did. Stupid Android. :@
From: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 5 May 2011 12:28
To: ALL62 of 115
Anyway, I now need to go out and find something to put in my mouth.

Might as well take a brief detour and hopefully annoy some Conservatives.

(It is today, right?)
From: Jo (JELLS) 5 May 2011 12:31
To: ALL63 of 115
David Blunkett admits that the No side used made-up numbers when they claimed AV would cost £250-mn.
EDITED: 5 May 2011 15:39 by JELLS
From: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 5 May 2011 12:34
To: Jo (JELLS) 64 of 115
Broken link?
From: Jo (JELLS) 5 May 2011 15:39
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 65 of 115
Weird. Fixed it now.
From: koswix 5 May 2011 15:52
To: Jo (JELLS) 66 of 115
Heh, doesn't surprise me.

I did like some of the comments, though:

quote:
I second that.

Blunkett and his ilk - career politicians more concerned about their own perceived rather than their duty to the electorate - ALL of the electorate, not just the 30% or so of each constituency that keeps returning them to parliament under FTTP.



Best argument for AV yet. If we can only return people to parliament via FTTP I think that leaves us with a choice between Skynet and PB :D
From: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 6 May 2011 00:51
To: ALL67 of 115
WTF?

We have to wait until 4pm until they even start counting.

What's the point in that? :|
From: koswix 6 May 2011 03:10
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 68 of 115

I dunno, but I'm watching the Scottish election results coming in. Looks like a landslide for the SNP 8-O :D

 

Most seats so far have a swing of about 15% to the SNP which is really significant. I don't think any of the Lib Dem candidates that have been counted so far have even for their deposits back. Of course with the Scottish system there will be a redressing of the vote in the second list, but the way Labour do things they're going to lose a LOT of their big guns* tonight.

 

 

 

*that's as in not big enough for Westminster but hell, it's only Holyrood. They'll accept any old crap up there.

From: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 6 May 2011 03:23
To: koswix 69 of 115
What's the second list?
From: koswix 6 May 2011 03:35
To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) 70 of 115

You get two votes. One is for a candidate (FPTP), one for a party(PR).

 

The more seats you win in the FPTP round the less you are likely to gain in the PR round.

 

It's complicated :|

From: koswix 6 May 2011 03:37
To: ALL71 of 115
Wow, Iain Gray (Leader of Scottish Labour) only just held onto his seat by 150-ish votes 8-O
From: koswix 6 May 2011 03:43
To: ALL72 of 115
If the SNP win a majority and hold their referendum on Independence, and Scotland goes for it, does that mean that you lot are left holding the bill for our banks? :'D
EDITED: 6 May 2011 03:44 by KOSWIX
From: Drew (X3N0PH0N) 6 May 2011 05:29
To: koswix 73 of 115
SNP (communist)

Looks like the lib dems are going to make big losses. And this is councils and I think people generally know how to separate local stuff from westminster stuff. I'm guessing it's just people expressing their anger/disappointment at the lib dems.

Seriously, what were the lib dems thinking? I mean, yes, showing them as part of the government makes them look more electable and could potentially encourage those "I'd vote lib dem but they'll never win so it's pointless..." people to vote for them in future.

But backstabbing their loyal base to do it? Allying with the tories? Going back on tuition fees (I mean, many lib dem candidates signed that 'pledge' not to raise tuition fees and ... now they are? I... that just leaves me speechless), u-turn on student loans? etc.

They really think they're going to gain more votes than they lose, from that? And even if they did, even if it worked - what do we have then? A third centrist/centre right party? What would be the point?

Lib dems seemed like the one (mainstream) party that actually had convictions, principles and (by today's standards) a cohesive ideology. And they've thrown that away for some tenuous, transient and honestly quite dangerous* appearance of power.

(*because of course, when the tories are done with them (i.e. when they can make their own majority, which isn't going to take much of a shift at all) they will turn on the lib dems and attack them using everything they learned during this 'close relationship'. And I really don't think the lib dems have the apparatus to respond to that)

If they'd used their position in the coalition to force the tories left, then that would've been fine. I still wouldn't like them handing the tories power, but whatever. If they'd pushed things left then that would've been forgiveable. Either a general leftwards pressure or sticking to their guns on a big issue. Instead they got us a referendum on AV. I mean come on.

This could've been the one thing. Give the country PR and give minority (including yourselves!!) parties a say in things. It would've been noble, it would've been pleasingly pragmatic and it would've been smart. But no, they let the tories talk them into it being AV. Which is such a small reform it's actually insulting. And is, of course, not at all proportional.

The tories must be loving it. They get free votes in the commons. They have to give nothing in return. The country wasn't sure, the lib dems hold the balance of power and... the do literally nothing with it. Which, aside from there more dramatic betrayals of the people who actually voted for them is a betrayal of the electorate at large.

So yeah, I feel utterly betrayed by the lib dems in various ways. I'm sure other voters do too. I, as someone who would never vote tory, got my vote cast for the tories (well not me personally in this case but anyone whose constituency returned a lib dem MP). I am about as likely to vote lib dem again now as I am to vote tory.

And this AV vote... the tories can spin it to their advantage whichever way it goes. If it goes "yes" then fine, nothing, essentially, changes - the electoral map will look pretty much as it does now and there'll never ever ever be a vote on PR because why bother? Voting has already been reformed. And if the vote is "no" then, well, people obviously don't want voting reform - they even turned down quite a mild variety so they certainly aren't going to support actual PR, why bother?

I don't know who's doing strategy for the lib dems. I mean I can't imagine anyone with an actual brain came up with this strategy (or lack thereof). I mean, this is how oblivious they are:

quote:
Mr Farron said the party was "finding out for the first time what it is to be a Liberal Democrat in mid-term"
.

That's the party president. He really thinks this is a mid-term thing? That's either disingenuous, dangerously stupid or just plain insulting. If it was a mid term thing then the tories would be leaking support at at least the same rate the libs are, and they're not. It's because the only people who can safely vote lib dems now are tory supporters. Possibly as second choice on their AV ballot, that way their vote goes to the tories either way.

I'm just amazed at the libs' performance at every stage of this. Every time they've had an opportunity to do something positive with it they've just rolled over for the tories instead. It's truly amazing. Either this is just a big vanity exercise for Clegg, they have some secret plan to do something amazing at some point, or they'e very very very very very very stupid.
From: Drew (X3N0PH0N) 6 May 2011 05:35
To: koswix 74 of 115
Oops that turned into a bit of an essay-rant.

I wanted to ask, if you know...

What does the sort of independence the SNP want look like? I mean I'm sure there's some disagreement even within the party as to what form it should take but what's the general y'know?
From: koswix 6 May 2011 05:41
To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) 75 of 115

+1

 

Looks like Scotland could actually get a majortity party in holyrood if momentum keeps up. That's an achievement and a half if they do, the whole system here was designed to prevent majorities (and so doing reduce the chance of an independence referendum).

 

And /fuck/ the lib dems. And /fuck/ Scottish labour.