Is the Labour party now so sick, it's fit for power? - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.0&return_msg=43031.12"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.21">21–26</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=43031.12">Is the Labour party now so sick, it's fit for power?</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="43031_12_26_10"> <a name="a43031_12"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_12"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">10 May 18:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 10 May 19:17"></span></span> <span class="message_count">12 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.12">43031.12</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.11">43031.11</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I think you're right. George Monbiot blames the world's ills on neoliberalism with it's political roots in the late 20s (the last lot of 20s, not this lot) and 30s. He's probably right with that, but along the way there's a lot of "thrashing about" from people who despair but have no way/route/levers to express themselves, and those who somehow believe that they <em>are</em> empowered. \The latter may appear to be simply stupid (eg the Tea Party, conspiracy theorist, anti-vaxx, Q-anon) but in reality are simply people who have realised that there is something very wrong with their lives. Just as the unempowered have no levers, those whose lives are meaningless can hardly be blamed for grabbing at something which seems to give it meaning. <br /> <br /> So outcomes are never going to be as guaranteed as your average neolib might want.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.12&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.12"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_13"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_13"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">10 May 19:34</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 10 May 19:43"></span></span> <span class="message_count">13 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.13">43031.13</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.12#a43031_12" target="_self">43031.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah, I think that all rings true.<br /> <br /> There are those times when stuff's kinda on a knife-edge and can go either way. The 20s-30s in the US were certainly that, if FDR hadn't appeased the populist left with the new deal, thing's could've gone very differently. But they were smart and saved capitalism.<br /> <br /> And May 68. The failure of that movement and subsequent turning away from Marx and back towards Nietzsche by academics set the left on the path it's on now where its kinda alienated from what should be its base. <br /> <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.13&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.13"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_14"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_14"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">10 May 19:43</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 10 May 21:12"></span></span> <span class="message_count">14 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.14">43031.14</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.9">43031.9</a></div> <div class="message_body"> How's the hostility expressed?<br /> <br /> There's a variety of ways. Motions submitted from local branches to higher forums, say NEC, for conferences, are ignored, not even considered if they are "left supporting". There are petty, stupid things that you wouldn't even give credit to. Expense claims are delayed or queried when they are totally normal if the claimant is "left supporting". Requests for information, even routine stuff to do constituency work, are ignored or dealt with slowly. Believe me, it becomes obvious. On the extreme side, candidates for major council roles, or for parliamentary standing, are overruled, or their applications are "late" or "go missing". If the worst happens, a rightwing candidate is parachuted in. These are things that the right of the party (and remember that the Labour party is unique in not having a right, only a centre and a hard left) have done every time they have been in control, but consistently accuse the left of plotting. But the left hasn't ever done this. How else did somebody like Frank Field survive with his admiration for Thatcher and Powell through the few leftwing periods? Dear Frank even breached the cardinal rule of the party by urging a neighbouring constituency not to vote Labour when it looked like Lol Duffy might beat Lynda Chalker. Heaven forfend that a socialist should overturn a huge tory majority.<br /> <br /> But most of that is my biased view of things. I suspect that for most labour supporters and activists it's just bloody obvious. It's the drip, drip, drip of the press and other media. The poor outcomes for anybody on the left compared with anybody on the right. The blatancy with which every promise Starmer made has been binned. As Bob once sang, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.<br /> <br /> And it's worse now than under Blair?<br /> <br /> If I'm honest, I don't know. I haven't been so directly involved in the local party in the last few years. What I hear all seems like pretty standard rightwing Labour stuff. The massive difference is the collaboration between Labour-right and the neoliberal press and media and the frankly brilliant idea of identifying antisemitism as the perfect anti-left weapon. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.14&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.14"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_15"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_15"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">10 May 21:19</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 11 May 09:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">15 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.15">43031.15</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.12#a43031_14" target="_self">43031.14</a></div> <div class="message_body"> That sounds incredibly demoralising.<br /> <br /> I watched a recent interview with Corbyn the other day and one of the things he expressed was that he was too kind and trusting towards the right wing. And that he expected that kindness to be reciprocated. And, y'know, no surprise that that's not how it turned out but the *extent* to which it's not true is kinda shocking. The brazen way the left is suppressed.<br /> <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.15&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.15"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_16"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_16"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">10 May 21:22</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 11 May 09:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">16 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.16">43031.16</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.12#a43031_14" target="_self">43031.14</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">the neoliberal press and media and the frankly brilliant idea of identifying antisemitism as the perfect anti-left weapon</div> <br /> I'm hoping we're reaching the end of that with it all being played out so starkly currently. And the public *seeming* to begin to see what that's all about.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.16&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.16"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_17"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_17"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">11 May 22:08</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">17 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.17">43031.17</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I joined for Corbyn, left a bit after Starmer took over having hung around slightly too long just in case he surprised by I dunno, keeping promises or something; it was just so demoralising watching all the good progress made being gleefully tossed aside for red-tie Toryism. I live in a pretty safe Labour seat so I can probably be pretty casual about a protest vote, nothing will change and there's seemingly very little ambition out there to make a change anymore unless it's "somehow be more fash than we already are". I'm kinda withdrawing from much overt engagement with politics, better off just trying to make some kind of small impression within my own life and contacts, maybe find ways to do more grassroots things in a few years.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.17&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.17"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_18"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_18"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">11 May 22:16</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 May 15:15"></span></span> <span class="message_count">18 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.18">43031.18</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.12#a43031_17" target="_self">43031.17</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">in case he surprised by I dunno, keeping promises or something</div> <br /> Being quite gullible I was like: "Oh, his leadership commitments are pretty good. Maybe Corbyn moved things enough that he'll actually stick to this stuff".<br /> <br /> <span class="emoticon e_fail" title="(fail)"><span class="e__">(fail)</span></span> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.18&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.18"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_19"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_19"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">11 May 22:26</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 May 15:15"></span></span> <span class="message_count">19 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.19">43031.19</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.12#a43031_17" target="_self">43031.17</a></div> <div class="message_body"> And you should get on Mastodon again!<br /> <br /> *Orrrrr* we get Matt to do another few thousand hours of unpaid labour and update Beehive to work with ActivityPub.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.19&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.19"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_20"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_20"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time"> 1 Jun 17:14</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Jun 14:08"></span></span> <span class="message_count">20 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.20">43031.20</a></div> <div class="message_body"> From other thread: <br /><i>> ... wondering whether, in the upcoming election, I'm going to not bother voting or cast a pointless vote for the Greens.</i> <p>I'll probably vote for the Greens, because even though it wont change the result, it might at least help them over the 5% threshold for retaining their deposit... <span class="emoticon e_unsure" title=":/"><span class="e__">:/</span></span> </p></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.20&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.20"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a43031_21"></a><div class="message" id="message_43031_21"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time"> 2 Jun 07:57</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 2 Jun 12:24"></span></span> <span class="message_count">21 of 26</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.21">43031.21</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=43031.12#a43031_20" target="_self">43031.20</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Late 1984 the Tory government started to talk about the numbers of "minor" candidates standing at general elections. It was (they said) a significant problem that so many frivolous and joke candidates were standing. To be fair, it was more of a thing in the 80s and it was common to see as many as a dozen or more candidates in addition to the (then) big three. On the other hand, there didn't appear to be any evidence that it actually was a particularly difficult task to run an election with that number of candidates. You might spot the coincidence that electoral law has recently been tampered with to fix an alleged problem of which there was no evidence at all, and draw your own conclusions.<br /> <br /> In 1985 they decided to fix this supposed problem and a number of proposals were made. Two ideas emerged as front-runners. First was a simple increase in the deposit required to stand as an MP. Second was that a candidate would require the support of at least a number of local signatories (I forget the actual number, but it would be down to the candidate or local party to provide the required proof that each signature was genuine and belonged to a valid voter within the constituency). This second proposal, that you need the support of, say, a hundred local voters in order to stand, seems complicated, but in fact it was all down to the candidate to do the work. Get valid signatures or no standing as an MP. It seemed to many people that this was an ideal solution, demonstrating the candidate's earnest intent, and that there was at least some local support.<br /> <br /> Naturally enough, the deposit was raised to £500 from the existing £150. This means that a prospective national party would need to raise £325,000 just for deposits. This was a massive disincentive to any group with aspirations to national significance, other than the wealthy. For the Tory party, £325K is the kind of cash thrown at a party drinks get-together, or dinner for a few MPs. Nothing at all. Neither was it an issue for forces like the BNP with their backing from wealthy right-wingers and foreign agencies. Nor, ironically, was it a disincentive for many of the genuinely frivolous candidates who only intended to contest a single seat anyway.<br /> <br /> It still is a huge problem for perfectly serious national parties such as the Greens. If you need convincing that using money as a way to regulate political participation is practically and morally wrong, this is a clear illustration.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=43031.21&return_msg=43031.12" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="43031.21"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="43031.22" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>