Brexit deal nigh or nyet? - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.0&return_msg=42264.7"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.11">11–20</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.191">191–200</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=42264.7">Brexit deal nigh or nyet?</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="42264_7_200_10"> <a name="a42264_7"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_7"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 08:48</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">7 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7">42264.7</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I think the least societally damaging sequence is to leave the EU, demonstrate over the next couple of years that we're worse off financially and that it's had little effect upon (visible, ie. BAME) migration, then hold a referendum to rejoin.<br /><br /> During this time the EU will have had to address migration issues to stem the rise in racist-driven populist hard-right politics, so the immigration card can't be played to the same effect as it was first time round.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.7&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.7"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_8"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_8"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 10:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2018 13:30"></span></span> <span class="message_count">8 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.8">42264.8</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_7" target="_self">42264.7</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">racist-driven populist hard-right politics,</div> <br /> This is the most remarkable aspect, but it's far from the whole story. I regard it more as a symptom of the globalist, neoliberal economic structure ('world order'), that has inflicted great harm on vast swaths of humanity and set people at each other's throats, once it began to really unravel in the 2008 crash. The migration crisis is only going to ramp up with climate change and the inevitable military conflicts over diminishing resources. It is unmanageable now, and will become a whole lot worse.<br /><br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.8&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.8"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_9"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_9"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 13:22</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2018 13:36"></span></span> <span class="message_count">9 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.9">42264.9</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_8" target="_self">42264.8</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">globalist, neoliberal economic structure ('world order')</div> <br /> That's an interesting point, but I think that the 'neoliberal' adjective is the most telling one. Racist-driven populism in all its forms, feeds on whatever targets are available. In isolationist states it turns on supposed differences within the 'indigenous' populations, whatever they may be. Probably the only effective way of combating racist-driven populism is by education combined with exposure to members of those other despised groups; effective but most definitely not infallible. Breaking down the old antagonisms between nations by education and exposure is one of the positive aspects of globalism, but when globalism is hi-jacked by the economic interests of ultra-rich individuals or corporations, it is just as good at spreading despair and hatred. It's complex though; I think it's a mistake to view globalist, neoliberal, economics as coherent. Quite often corporations who might be imagined to have an interest in national and international harmony will ally themselves with local nationalist causes and create discord simply because it gives a short-term profit, even when it might reduce longer term profitability. In this respect I think it's often better viewed in psychological terms than political or economic ones. <br /><br /> Similarly the brexit argument isn't really susceptible to reasoned debate except on the margins where individuals have little investment in a particular view. For instance, my reasons for wishing to stay within the EU are largely ethical and emotional and I say that quite openly. I also happen to think there is a sound economic argument for remaining and that the sovereignty argument is a largely based on a fallacious view of what sovereignty actually is and what it has ever meant, but that is secondary to my main reasons. Incidentally, I think that one of the key aims of brexiteers, the end of free movement within the EU, is one of the saddest and most devastating losses to the UK. Unfortunately, economics has replaced morality as the only game in town (just as science has replaced religion) so all arguments centre on economics and any other areas of discussion are either secondary (defence, policing etc) or are dismissed as irrelevant, or abusive, or patronising or, or, or...<br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.9&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.9"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_10"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_10"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 13:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2018 16:28"></span></span> <span class="message_count">10 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.10">42264.10</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_9" target="_self">42264.9</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Breaking down the old antagonisms between nations by education and exposure</div> <br /> That would be true except: education has been steadily degraded to forms of indoctrination and vocational training -- not least in self-styled Western 'democracies'.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.10&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.10"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_11"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_11"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 16:28</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2018 18:06"></span></span> <span class="message_count">11 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.11">42264.11</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_10" target="_self">42264.10</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I didn't mean just school education, although properly done this can help. I meant education in a broader sense to include sources of information and, of course, the various media outlets treating people and customs that are different as different, but not weird, perverse, evil etc.* (some hope). I do agree that school education is constantly under attack from politicians who want their views and values promoted, or by businesses that want schools and universities to be labour-feeds. Then there are the other type of politico/economists who feel that education can always be done cheaper if only you do that magic bit of reorganisation that will make it somehow - um - cheaper.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> *unless they are - FGM for instance.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 14 Nov 2018 16:28 by WILLIAMA</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.11&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.11"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_12"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_12"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 18:19</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2018 20:07"></span></span> <span class="message_count">12 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.12">42264.12</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_11" target="_self">42264.11</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah I would hope that would work. The information is already out there, but the people who need to read it don't want to. I dunno how you deal with that.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.12&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.12"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_13"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_13"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 20:07</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2018 23:18"></span></span> <span class="message_count">13 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.13">42264.13</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_12" target="_self">42264.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> The Greeks and their bloody democracy have got a lot to answer for.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.13&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.13"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_14"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_14"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 22:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Nov 2018 00:03"></span></span> <span class="message_count">14 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.14">42264.14</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_7" target="_self">42264.7</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <i>> so the immigration card can't be played to the same effect as it was first time round.</i> <p><big><b>///LOL<em>!!</em>///</b></big></p></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.14&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.14"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_15"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_15"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2018 23:21</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Nov 2018 16:44"></span></span> <span class="message_count">15 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.15">42264.15</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_13" target="_self">42264.13</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Slaves something something</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.15&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.15"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_16"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_16"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">15 Nov 2018 00:09</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 17 Nov 2018 23:09"></span></span> <span class="message_count">16 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.16">42264.16</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.7#a42264_14" target="_self">42264.14</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Aye, maybe so. Fucking hope not, though. Otherwise, what's the point of the kicking against the pricks we've done?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.16&return_msg=42264.7" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.16"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="42264.17" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>