Brexit deal nigh or nyet? - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.0&return_msg=42264.59"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.31">31–40</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.41">41–50</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.51">51–60</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.61">61–70</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.191">191–200</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=42264.59">Brexit deal nigh or nyet?</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="42264_59_200_10"> <a name="a42264_59"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_59"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">22 Feb 2019 18:28</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 22 Feb 2019 22:26"></span></span> <span class="message_count">59 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59">42264.59</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.55">42264.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> What Milko said.<br /><br /> Journalists such as Tom Bower and Stephen Pollard are virulently right wing and prepared to use their ethnicity to attack Corbyn and anybody else they oppose, Jewish or otherwise. Corbyn's Jewish supporters such as the author Michael Rosen or journalist Michael Segalov are routinely abused and insulted because they don't fall into line. Rosen is somebody who has been told that he is not a 'proper' Jew and Segalov was told on national television that he was a 'self-hating Jew' by Tom Bower. <br /><br /> It doesn't help that many Labour supporters, fellow travellers and trolls sometimes appear to be incapable of thinking before speaking and keeping their mouths shut. It follows that anything sensible they say goes unreported whereas anything stupid or ill considered is covered by all media outlets alongside a routinely unchallenged right wing commentary. The clown George Galloway is attempting to rejoin the Labour party and interviewed by Sky News he was asked about antisemitism. Not only did he dismiss the whole issue as 'black ops', he went on to describe it as 'Goebellian', a choice of words so head-smackingly stupid that it almost defies belief. <br /><br /> Yes, the Labour party does have a problem. There are antisemites and there are stupid people by the fistful. It is not and never will be remotely on the same scale as the anti-semitism and racism of all sorts within the Tory party and their supporters even though the Labour party is nearly five times larger. A huge amount has been done to address the problem. This will never be properly reported. On a pragmatic level, the problem is the press which is almost wholly happy to support and amplify the accusations. On a moral level it is a problem that it exists and Labour should never stop addressing it.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 22 Feb 2019 18:33 by WILLIAMA</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.59&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.59"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_60"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_60"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">22 Feb 2019 23:31</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 23 Feb 2019 00:56"></span></span> <span class="message_count">60 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.60">42264.60</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.55">42264.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> My stance remains the same until the evidence changes. <p>I try not to waste my life with the news, so I just did this search: <a href="https://duckduckgo.com/?q=labour+r%3Auk&iar=news">https://duckduckgo.com/?q=labour+r%3Auk&iar=news</a> </p><p>The first seemingly relevant article was this one: <a href="https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-denies-wide-scale-bullying-in-the-labour-party-a4074506.html">https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-denies-wide-scale-bullying-in-the-labour-party-a4074506.html</a> </p><p>It mentions Ian Austin posted a full statement on his website, so I find that here: <a href="http://www.ianaustin.co.uk/i_have_taken_the_difficult_decision_to_leave_the_labour_party">http://www.ianaustin.co.uk/i_have_taken_the_difficult_decision_to_leave_the_labour_party</a> </p><p>There's a lot of rhetoric, so if I'm missing anything substantial you'll have to point it out me, but this seems to be the crux of Ian's statement: </p><p><i>"Jeremy Corbyn and the people around him have turned a mainstream party into something very different. He has spent his entire political career working with and supporting all sorts of extremists, and in some cases terrorists and antisemites. I always thought he was unfit to lead the Labour Party and I certainly think he is unfit to lead our country."</i></p> <p>Um, yeah. <span class="emoticon e_unsure" title=":/"><span class="e__">:/</span></span> </p><p>The quote Milko posted is also a lot of waffle, but it does have actual statistics. It suggests Jeremy Corbyn's Labour have dealt with anti-semitism from 2 MPs and 60 party members. Can you show proof of ignored complaints or unhandled issues? How many complaints have the Conservatives received and what was their outcome? What about the Lib Dems?</p><div class="edit_text">EDITED: 22 Feb 2019 23:31 by BOUGHTONP</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.60&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.60"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_61"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_61"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">23 Feb 2019 11:58</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 23 Feb 2019 12:48"></span></span> <span class="message_count">61 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.61">42264.61</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59#a42264_59" target="_self">42264.59</a></div> <div class="message_body"> yeah, these opportunistic MPs like Austin and Umunna are happy to use spurious antisemitism accusations to attack the leadership, largely (entirely, even?) to further their agenda of turning the party back to the right. I mean, that's the party they joined under Blair et al, they have the right to try and change it but this is a really bad way to go about it and diminishes actual genuine efforts to combat antisemitism. And of course, the press and many people in power are desperate to avoid Corbyn becoming PM so they gleefully amplify it. Horrible situation.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.61&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.61"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_62"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_62"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">12 Mar 2019 15:10</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">62 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.62">42264.62</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Looking like May and her deal's geese are cooked...</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.62&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.62"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_63"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_63"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">12 Mar 2019 15:42</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 12 Mar 2019 15:43"></span></span> <span class="message_count">63 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.63">42264.63</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59#a42264_62" target="_self">42264.62</a></div> <div class="message_body"> It looks that way, though the numbers are still fluid and the ERG have yet to come to a collective decision. Brextremists will be weighing up a half-assed (in their terms) Brexit against the possibility of a softer Brexit yet, or even no Brexit at all, if it's voted down and there's a successful vote for an extension.<br /><br /> If she's voted down this evening, she's toast. Any normal person would resign if that happened but she adamantly believes in a responsibility to public service (it's a vicar's child thing. I speak from a position of knowledge). She also believes, erroneously, that she's the best person for the job. So she will have to pushed. The Ides of March are approaching.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.63&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.63"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_64"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_64"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">12 Mar 2019 17:36</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 Mar 2019 08:21"></span></span> <span class="message_count">64 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.64">42264.64</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59#a42264_63" target="_self">42264.63</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">she adamantly believes in a responsibility to public service</div> I can't help thinking that this is an exceptionally generous assessment. I'd offer a psychological explanation myself: she's dangerously controlling and stubborn. People who believe in a responsibility to public service tend not to make commitments and then renege on them as readily as she does. Looking at her history, acting on her nasty little prejudices as Home Secretary and then terrified of her party's right wing over Brexit, to me she looks more like the School Bully's best mate rather than an archetypal Vicar's kid.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.64&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.64"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_65"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_65"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">12 Mar 2019 23:07</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 Mar 2019 08:21"></span></span> <span class="message_count">65 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.65">42264.65</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59#a42264_63" target="_self">42264.63</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <i>> If she's voted down this evening, she's toast.</i> <p>By 149 votes (38:62). Time to heat the beans then?</p></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.65&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.65"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_66"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_66"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">13 Mar 2019 08:37</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: william (WILLIAMA) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 Mar 2019 10:33"></span></span> <span class="message_count">66 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.66">42264.66</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59#a42264_64" target="_self">42264.64</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I agree, but I don't think that the two explanations are mutually exclusive. Dedication to public* service has an strong element of arrogance about it: it often involves the assumption that one's values & aspirations and those of the constituency one serves are closely aligned. And, of course, one's values and aspirations are often informed, consciously or not, by one's own self-interest and prejudices.<br /><br /> It's not uncommon (and often not wrong) for those dedicated to service to give the public what they think is good for them, rather than what they want.<br /><br /> *I mistyped 'pubic', then shuddered at my error.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.66&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.66"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_67"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_67"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">13 Mar 2019 08:39</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 Mar 2019 20:30"></span></span> <span class="message_count">67 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.67">42264.67</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59#a42264_65" target="_self">42264.65</a></div> <div class="message_body"> We can only hope.<br /><br /> Of course, there's a certain element of 'be careful what you wish for' about what happens if she goes. Who, out of this current government of all the talentless, would be a better alternative? The only one I can think of - who also has a snowball's chance of being voted in by the Tories - is Amber Rudd: and I say that only as I would, deciding which animal's shit would be better in my sandwich.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.67&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.67"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42264_68"></a><div class="message" id="message_42264_68"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: william (WILLIAMA)<span class="message_time">13 Mar 2019 11:22</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Manthorp <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 Mar 2019 11:23"></span></span> <span class="message_count">68 of 200</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.68">42264.68</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42264.59#a42264_67" target="_self">42264.67</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Absolutely. That's a big problem with the current Tory crop. I do try to think outside my lefty bubble and look for positives in some of them. Clearly, I am never going to have any sympathy for Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Chope, Cleverly, Fox, Leadsom etc. but I see Amber Rudd saying a few honest things about Universal Credit and I remind myself that she has been strong enough to take the bullet for May in the Home Office, and earlier in the election debate. Then I start to wonder about her role as Home Secretary and just how clean her hands really are. Political memories are short, but it really is only a year ago that Amber Rudd was facing criticism for her failure to tackle knife crime and her efforts to justify savage cuts to the police force. She may not have the obvious vanity and gross personal ambition of Sajid Javid, but her failures add up to complicity. <br /><br /> With her off my list, I can't think of one who is fit to be PM, or even one who actually shows any interest at all in public service rather than personal enrichment and acting out dirty little urges and prejudices.<br /><br /> (edited shocking grammar)<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 13 Mar 2019 14:00 by WILLIAMA</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42264.68&return_msg=42264.59" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42264.68"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="42264.69" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>