German Election - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.0&return_msg=42034.10"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.31">31–32</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=42034.10">German Election</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="42034_10_32_10"> <a name="a42034_10"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_10"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time">28 Sep 2017 16:49</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Sep 2017 16:49"></span></span> <span class="message_count">10 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.10">42034.10</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.7">42034.7</a></div> <div class="message_body"> North Korea might be an example - it is hard for me to really tell what is going on because the news bias has always been pretty strong.<br /><br /> You are right about problems from the past aren't justified by bad behavior of the present - I was sort of referring to the middle east countries though and not necessarily the enemy du jour.<br /><br /> Historically the US method of dealing with extremist is to just let people do their protesting and complaining. Usually by the time they grow up, get a job and have a couple of kids, they are too tired to misbehave.<br /><br /> I am not a big fan of the German approach which is more or less to label anyone who disagrees with the lead party as a fascist. I am sure that there is some of that, but every political party will attract and incite some overly excitable followers - the greens are a prefect example. Heavy suppression of free speech is rarely a good idea, and it is done with an iron fist there. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.10&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.10"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_11"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_11"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">28 Sep 2017 16:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Sep 2017 16:55"></span></span> <span class="message_count">11 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.11">42034.11</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.10#a42034_10" target="_self">42034.10</a></div> <div class="message_body"> The Germans suppress free speech? I know they're pretty harsh on Nazis but there's some very good reasons why, and I don't think much else is verboten is it? I could be wrong, would love to know more. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.11&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.11"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_12"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_12"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time">28 Sep 2017 16:55</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">12 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.12">42034.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I guess the part that is the most interesting is that my German business colleagues and friends have given me a lot of flack over the US electoral college system, where a candidate that had less than 50% of the individual votes could win.<br /><br /> Germany will apparently now have as the leader someone who 2 out of 3 German voters didn't want to be their leader. <br /><br /> If 2 out of 3 voters in the US voted for "someone else", it would be very difficult to win - except of course in California that could theoretically happen.<br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.12&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.12"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_13"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_13"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time">28 Sep 2017 17:06</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">13 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.13">42034.13</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><b>quote:</b> <a href="messages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.11">milko</a></div> <div class="quote">The Germans suppress free speech? I know they're pretty harsh on Nazis but there's some very good reasons why, and I don't think much else is verboten is it? I could be wrong, would love to know more. </div> <p>Similar to here in CA, a lot of it is social pressure. Even though the claim is that it is a society open to ideas and conversations, in reality if you have an alternative point of view, it is dealt with pretty harshly.<br /><br /> I know of a few people in Germany who are gun owners, and they asked me to never mention it at work or they would loose their jobs. Pretty similar here in CA. Of course smoking pot, a Federal crime is allowed, while smoking cigarettes or drinking a beer when you are 18 is a crime worthy of jail.<br /><br /> It all seems kind of crazy to someone who grew up around relatives that smoked and most of us drank modest amounts of beer since we were 6.<br /><br /> My grandmother had a keg on tap at all times and no one could leave the place without drinking a glass for risk of insulting her.</p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 28 Sep 2017 17:07 by HARRYN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.13&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.13"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_14"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_14"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">28 Sep 2017 17:26</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 29 Sep 2017 21:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">14 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.14">42034.14</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.10#a42034_12" target="_self">42034.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> You're comparing totally different electoral and political systems. In Germany (and the UK) people are voting for parties (or local representatives) and not individuals (presidents), meaning the leader of the largest party is generally the one who assumes the top position. Whereas in the States you have a Presidential election. <br /> <br /> It is similar in the UK where 57.6% of the population didn't vote for the party in power. But also in the US 53.9% of the population didn't vote for the current president.<br /> <br /> At least in Germany it is proportional and they are forced to enter coalition governments. And a proportional system allows a more diverse lineup of political parties, rather than a 2 party system, because there is a realistic chance of representation. <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.14&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.14"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_15"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_15"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">28 Sep 2017 17:49</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 28 Sep 2017 22:02"></span></span> <span class="message_count">15 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.15">42034.15</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.9">42034.9</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Yeah apparently AfD's support is confined to the (formerly "communist") east:<br /><br /> <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/is-germanys-election-result-the-revenge-of-the-east">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/is-germanys-election-result-the-revenge-of-the-east</a><br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.15&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.15"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_16"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_16"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Peter (BOUGHTONP)<span class="message_time">28 Sep 2017 21:29</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 29 Sep 2017 21:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">16 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.16">42034.16</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.6">42034.6</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <i>> As far as having a sense of nationalism, I don't see that as a bad thing.</i> <p>Except for when it's the absolute worst thing ever, which it almost always is. </p><br /><p><i>> ..perhaps Germany needs a bit more of it.</i> </p><p>¬_¬ Yeah, because who cares about 82 million deaths?</p></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.16&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.16"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_17"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_17"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Manthorp<span class="message_time">29 Sep 2017 01:49</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Peter (BOUGHTONP) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 1 Oct 2017 12:44"></span></span> <span class="message_count">17 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.17">42034.17</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.10#a42034_16" target="_self">42034.16</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I grew up in Pakistan, and for the last 2 years attended an international school with a US staff. I can still remember the daily pledging of allegiance to the the flag, which even as a child disturbed me.<br /><br /> It was no worse than singing the Pakistani national anthem in a previous school or standing for the national anthem in UK cinemas (yes, I'm old enough to remember that!) - but it was no better either.<br /><br /> That nationalism which shades into chauvinism, which shades into jingoism, which shades into xenophobia, strikes me as antithetical to that which makes people most human. We should value being social animals, not antisocial ones.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.17&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.17"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_18"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_18"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Dave!!<span class="message_time">29 Sep 2017 16:05</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 29 Sep 2017 21:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">18 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.18">42034.18</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.10#a42034_12" target="_self">42034.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Milko is correct that in Germany, you vote for the party - not the leader. In the UK, you're supposed to vote for who you want your local MP to be, but of course people often end up looking at May, Corbyn etc. and using that to make their decision.<br /><br /> However, the other way of looking at it is that more people voted for Merkel's party than anyone else, so she's the most deserving leader. After her, the next party was the SPD with only 20% of the vote share. Surely it'd be even more strange to have a leader that only 1 in 5 voted for?<br /><br /> As it is due to the coalition process, by the time the parties have come to an agreement, the ruling coalition will (between them) have over 50% of the vote, and hence have a mandate to be in power. It's just that politicians and parties have to work together to achieve it.<br /><br /> On the plus side of the German system, the only votes that are essentially wasted are for parties with less than 5% of the vote share. In Britain, only the winner of the constituency counts, which means lots of tactical voting and wasted votes. Vote for the Green party in the UK and it's usually a wasted vote. Vote for them in Germany and you're directly affecting the Bundestag as the Greens have 8.9% of the vote, and hence 9.4% of the seats.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 29 Sep 2017 16:08 by DAVE!!</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.18&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.18"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a42034_19"></a><div class="message" id="message_42034_19"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time">29 Sep 2017 21:10</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 29 Sep 2017 23:42"></span></span> <span class="message_count">19 of 32</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.19">42034.19</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.10#a42034_14" target="_self">42034.14</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><b>quote:</b> <a href="messages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=42034.14">ANT_THOMAS</a></div> <div class="quote">You're comparing totally different electoral and political systems. In Germany (and the UK) people are voting for parties (or local representatives) and not individuals (presidents), meaning the leader of the largest party is generally the one who assumes the top position. Whereas in the States you have a Presidential election.<br /><br /> It is similar in the UK where 57.6% of the population didn't vote for the party in power. But also in the US 53.9% of the population didn't vote for the current president.<br /><br /> At least in Germany it is proportional and they are forced to enter coalition governments. And a proportional system allows a more diverse lineup of political parties, rather than a 2 party system, because there is a realistic chance of representation.</div> <p>I think that this concept of "voting for a party" to be in congress and then the congress selecting the President was done in the US at one time. It didn't work out that well, as the party bosses picked the president and the usual corruption was even worse than the current system of an electoral college.<br /><br /> The US is not fundamentally a 2 party system, that is just a result of crooked politics and crooked election laws that tend to push out smaller parties.<br /><br /> In CA it is perhaps even worse, because the election laws are written so that they take the results of the primary elections and only forward the "two top candidates in vote count" to the final election. This resulted in eliminating not only third parties like the Greens, Libertarians, Independents, etc - but largely even eliminated the Republican party from many offices.<br /><br /> We get the pleasure of voting for one of two Democrats - which is pretty ridiculous no matter your political views.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=42034.19&return_msg=42034.10" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="42034.19"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="42034.20" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>