The US Presidential Election 2016 - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.0&return_msg=41828.48"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.31">31–40</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.41">41–50</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.51">51–60</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.81">81–85</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41828.48">The US Presidential Election 2016</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41828_48_85_10"> <a name="a41828_48"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_48"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">11 Nov 2016 08:30</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 11 Nov 2016 17:02"></span></span> <span class="message_count">48 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.48">41828.48</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.46">41828.46</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Hi Harry, I don't much want to know how you voted, I just wanted to be clear I wasn't personally attacking you with my post; it seemed as I wrote that it could easily be read that way. I think our own so-called democracy has much the same problem as yours at the moment, as Xen describes.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.48&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.48"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_49"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_49"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">11 Nov 2016 08:31</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 11 Nov 2016 17:02"></span></span> <span class="message_count">49 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.49">41828.49</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.46">41828.46</a></div> <div class="message_body"> It is only this year that I realised that was the case for the primaries in California, very odd system. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.49&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.49"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_50"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_50"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">11 Nov 2016 08:37</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 11 Nov 2016 08:38"></span></span> <span class="message_count">50 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.50">41828.50</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.47">41828.47</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Ok, we agree on plenty there. I'm not so forgiving of people of people being taken along in the mainstream/allowing themselves to be used to push that agenda, at the moment. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.50&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.50"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_51"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_51"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">11 Nov 2016 08:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 11 Nov 2016 08:44"></span></span> <span class="message_count">51 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.51">41828.51</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.47">41828.47</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I think the view that racists voted for Brexit/Trump but not all of Brexit/Trump voters are racist holds true. By voting for those things you are at fault for legitimising them, much like we would be continuing to vote for a neoliberal left. <br /> <br /> I don't think this is necessarily the case for Trump (based on the income demographic break downs I've seen, unless I've read them wrong), but for Brexit it was heavily backed by the traditional working class low income people who feel "left behind" or totally unrepresented by the current mainstream parties. In a lot of people's eyes things can't get any worse so why not vote for an alternative new option, a vote for change and hope it works. I suppose many people with literally no money can't see how it's possible to have less (it definitely is possible when austerity bites even more, but they already feel like they have no hope). <br /> <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.51&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.51"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_52"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_52"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">11 Nov 2016 08:44</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 Nov 2016 20:40"></span></span> <span class="message_count">52 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.52">41828.52</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.48#a41828_50" target="_self">41828.50</a></div> <div class="message_body"> More or less forgiving than of us continuing to vote for these parties who favour an economic system which relies on working poor people elsewhere, including children, to death so we can have cheap stuff; bombing civilians if it looks like it might be vaguely maybe possibly in our economic interests; systematically alienating and at times brutalising minorities; destroying the economies of entire nations to prevent our currency from losing a few % of value etc. etc..<br /><br /> We've been voting for this shit for *years* and because they offered us the exact same lie: "we'll make it all better and keep you safe, we promise".<br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.52&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.52"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_53"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_53"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">11 Nov 2016 08:52</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 11 Nov 2016 09:46"></span></span> <span class="message_count">53 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.53">41828.53</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.48#a41828_51" target="_self">41828.51</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Exactly, yeah, and yeah it applies to Trump too.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.53&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.53"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_54"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_54"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">13 Nov 2016 20:48</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2016 09:46"></span></span> <span class="message_count">54 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.54">41828.54</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.48#a41828_52" target="_self">41828.52</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Well indeed, I don't try to excuse us of that. I'm just not sure voting to make everything universally worse for all (except, somewhat ironically, the elite top few % generally) is a good answer. To blame things like migrants from places that the aforementioned system has caused to fail (or simply blown it up). I struggle even with applying 'understandable' to it, honestly, and I don't actually see much value in this thing I'm seeing all over the place post-Trump and saw a lot of post-Brexit where we must try to understand and sympathise. That seems to be being done in really shit ways, like putting Le Pen on telly for a soft interview, giving Farage a bit more air time, an opinion column from some white middle-classer saying Trump might not be so bad really, that sort of thing. Fuck it!<br /><br /> I don't buy it at all. People should be grouping together for better change more inclusively, not falling for this fascist shit yet again.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.54&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.54"> <span class="rating">+2/2</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_55"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_55"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2016 10:08</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 14 Nov 2016 10:35"></span></span> <span class="message_count">55 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.55">41828.55</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.48#a41828_54" target="_self">41828.54</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Nobody's making that argument though. No one's saying that all of this means that voting Trump/Brexit is in any way good.<br /><br /> It's just not <em>fundamentally</em> worse than what <em>we</em>'ve been doing for decades. People voting in what they mistakenly perceive to be their own self-interest and/or wilfully ignoring the damage the ideology they're validating does to others.<br /><br /> Neoliberal policy has done immense damage to the world, <em>including</em> but definitely not limited to <em>paving the way for Brexit and Trump</em>. We swallowed it because we believed we were getting incremental progress, but we weren't really, not meaningfully. It was ok <em>for us</em>, we were comfortable, but everyone else (besides the wealthy, who were benefiting disproportionately more than us) was getting fucked.<br /><br /> We don't get to be angry at the people who voted Trump/Brexit for being tricked in exactly the same way we've been tricked for the last 60 years just because their racism is slightly less sophisticated than ours (and is really given life by our own complacent acceptance of a decade of racist rhetoric).<br /><br /> We should be angry at the centre-left - labour and the lib dems, for abandoning the only possible counter-narrative. At the media for happily stirring the shit so long as they made money and reducing political discourse to inane, artificially polarised superficial drivel because it made their work easier. At the political class in general for deserting democracy.<br /><br /> And that anger should be directed at the actual enemy, the ones who actually caused all this and who benefit no matter who's in power because <em>all</em> politicians are selling their ideology - the wealthy and big business. If we fight amongst ourselves, they're fucking laughing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.55&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.55"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_56"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_56"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2016 10:40</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Nov 2016 07:09"></span></span> <span class="message_count">56 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.56">41828.56</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.48#a41828_55" target="_self">41828.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I AM angry at the centre left! I'm angry with all of it and all of them! But I'm not persuaded that means I should be less pissed off with people going along with it. I don't believe that they're that easily ignorant of what's happening here.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 14 Nov 2016 12:34 by MILKO</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.56&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.56"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41828_57"></a><div class="message" id="message_41828_57"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">14 Nov 2016 10:41</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 15 Nov 2016 07:09"></span></span> <span class="message_count">57 of 85</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.57">41828.57</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41828.48#a41828_55" target="_self">41828.55</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Righteous!</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41828.57&return_msg=41828.48" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41828.57"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41828.58" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>