Brexit - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.0&return_msg=41733.21"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.21">21–30</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41733.21">Brexit</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41733_21_30_10"> <a name="a41733_21"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_21"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: graphitone<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2016 08:56</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 22 Jun 2016 09:11"></span></span> <span class="message_count">21 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.21">41733.21</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.20">41733.20</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Well said.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">but we'll still have to pay a fee to be part of a free trade agreement, but then have no legal influence over policies.</div> ^This.<br /><br /> The televised debate last night was more bickering, mudslinging and oneupmanship from all sides. However, the MSP Conservative lady (can't remember her name) was the most coherent speaker and I think won the debate on the night.<br /><br /> The leave campaigners were espousing their cause in a way that irritated the fuck out of me. Putting over a weak argument and then culminating their speech with their slogan more often than not just grated. A few of them also leaned on the old chestnut of 'speaking as a parent/grandparent'. I already assumed they have family, fortifying a statement with that prefix means nothing and is an attempt to either sympathise with the voters, or get the voters to sympathise with them. If the argument is hollow and unsubstantiated or even if it isn't, referring back to your family to make it seem that you're one of us doesn't wash.<br /><br /> Some people I know seem to think that leaving will allow us to literally shut our borders to immigrants, and somehow that's a panacea to sorting out the housing shortage, low wages and lack of school places.<br /><br /> I hope we stay in and the wife hopes we do too. But that's mainly because she's a teacher, who was detrimentally affected by Gove's policies as education secretary, really doesn't like him and will shift heaven and earth to be on the opposite of whatever side he's on.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.21&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.21"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_22"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_22"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: koswix<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2016 11:17</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 26 Jun 2016 23:02"></span></span> <span class="message_count">22 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.22">41733.22</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.18">41733.18</a></div> <div class="message_body"> That's interesting. There are a lot of genuine reasons to leave the Eu, but the ones you've given as examples from your media coverage are all just plain wrong. <br /> <br /> 1. We're not pushed around by the eu. Not any more than we're pushed around by any other major political entity that we value a relationship with, anyway (USA, China...)<br /> <br /> 2. Something like 80% of UK laws are entirely drafted and passed by the UK Parliaments, the eu based laws are passed by our Parliament after our elected Members of the European Parliament debate and draft them. <br /> <br /> 3. We get a lot of money back from the eu, which has to be spent on specific projects. This may sound like loss of sovereignty or some such shit, but It means that the less sexy, but no less important even though they don't win votes, projects still get done. What we don't get back is predominantly used for development in poorer countries, aiding their economies and improving our export market in the process whilst simultaneously reducing the drive for economic migration. <br /> <br /> 4. Soverignty is a myth. <br /> <br /> 5. A lot of the current t politicians have a real issue with the European Human Rights Act, which protects basic freedoms and liberties. They describe it as losing Soverignty and being pushed around by Europe, yet conveniently forget that the act was drafted and more or less imposed on Europe by the UK, after WW2. <br /> <br /> 6. Borders are shit and visas are stupid. <br /> <br /> 7. Soverignty is still a myth. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.22&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.22"> <span class="rating">+2/2</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_23"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_23"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2016 13:41</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 26 Jun 2016 23:02"></span></span> <span class="message_count">23 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.23">41733.23</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.18">41733.18</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Some of the arguments for exit about having more control over our laws or whatever, I could be persuaded by if I had any confidence our lawmakers would use them for good. Like, the EU would make it quite difficult for us to renationalise some industries (eg railways, utilities) and there's a few other left-wing reasons to want to leave. However what we'd actually get right now is instead further dismantling of worker protection, shitter trade deals that we have less influence over with EU countries, less opposition to TTIP and countless other things I don't like one bit. <br /><br /> Meanwhile arguments most prominently had seem to be red herrings -<br /> immigration: we already have control of non-EU immigration and don't do anything much about it because the politicians know that actually it's needed and in fact a net benefit to the country. EU immigration we'd still have to accept freedom of movement as part of trade deals, see Norway for example. In other words, it is more or less entirely irrelevant. What we need is proper investment in infrastructure to keep things like housing, hospitals, schools and transport working well. Which'd also benefit the economy! But isn't going to happen.<br /> Elected officials: The House of Lords is not elected, so that's what, 50% of our own government straight away. Meanwhile our representatives in Europe <em>are </em>elected. I'd in principle love to abolish an unelected House except again recently they've pretty much been the only thing standing between us and some really shitty Bills from Parliament.<br /> Taxes: mainly as has been mentioned, this is entirely misrepresented as a one-way fee we get nothing back from. But actually a lot of our funding for deprived areas comes from EU grants and you can be damn sure the Tories wouldn't be providing it.<br /><br /> Just about everything the Brexit campaign wants they could have already if they elected a government to do it instead of one to make it worse. Meanwhile what they're all going to vote for now will actually do nothing to reduce inequality (the opposite in fact), nothing for immigration, nothing for 'being pushed around' (we'd no longer have a veto on EU policy but it would still affect us if we want to trade with them) and argh, it makes me mad.<br /><br /> I think/hope we'll get a 51% remain vote tomorrow. If we don't, well I was already idly considering emigration possibilities. Brexit would do nothing good for the company I work for so I'd have to think a bit more seriously about it for sure.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.23&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.23"> <span class="rating">+2/2</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_24"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_24"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2016 14:59</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">24 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.24">41733.24</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I've been following this pretty closely on the Guardian web site (it barely rates a mention in the Canadian press, except in business sections where it receives a lot of attention). My sympathies lie with the Remain crowd, I agree with whoever said they have largely botched making their case before the British public -- I blame Cameron and other Cons, though Corbyn has been pretty lukewarm.<br /><br /> Having said that, I have no idea what the long-term fallout would be from a brexit, it seems like it would be damaging to the EU itself which is already under considerable stress, due to rising nationalism and xenophobia among many constituent countries. And I think Britain would find itself cut off from a huge, important market at least for a while, which will likely be very, very damaging to its economy. I can see many head offices of large corporations (including our main client) there relocating tout suite. And then there's the Scotland thing.<br /><br /> Really hope it doesn't happen. <span class="emoticon e_horror" title=":-&"><span class="e__">:-&</span></span> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.24&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.24"> <span class="rating">+1/1</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_25"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_25"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2016 16:26</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">25 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.25">41733.25</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Damn, this is a real nail-biter <span class="emoticon e_curlysad" title=":L"><span class="e__">:L</span></span> <br /><br /> <a href="http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/political-polling-22nd-june-2016">http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/survey-results/political-polling-22nd-june-2016</a><br /><br /><img alt="" src="http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/sites/ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/files/chart_5.png" /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.25&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.25"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_26"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_26"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2016 17:06</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 22 Jun 2016 17:10"></span></span> <span class="message_count">26 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.26">41733.26</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.21#a41733_25" target="_self">41733.25</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Phone polling is generally more optimistic and seen as a more reliable indicator, but lots of pre-election polls were way off last GE so who knows. It's certainly a nail-biter, you're right there.<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 22 Jun 2016 17:12 by MILKO</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.26&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.26"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_27"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_27"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: patch<span class="message_time">22 Jun 2016 18:56</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 22 Jun 2016 18:56"></span></span> <span class="message_count">27 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.27">41733.27</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.20">41733.20</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I voted Stay a couple of weeks ago. I have very little idea what most of the points made by either side were (it takes ages for the carrier pigeons to get over here), I just can't see how splitting up into smaller and smaller units can be helpful in any way. Also, I'm not sure I can complain about immigration when I'm living in another country.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.27&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.27"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_28"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_28"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time">25 Jun 2016 03:44</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">28 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.28">41733.28</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.21#a41733_27" target="_self">41733.27</a></div> <div class="message_body"> You're out! Good on you!<br /><br /> The American Market Manipulating Twats are trying to cash in. <span class="emoticon e_fail" title="(fail)"><span class="e__">(fail)</span></span> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.28&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.28"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_29"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_29"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX)<span class="message_time">13 Oct 2017 15:04</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">29 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.29">41733.29</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Tide is turning: <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/13/labour-flags-up-brexit-poll-which-suggests-public-regret-decision">https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/13/labour-flags-up-brexit-poll-which-suggests-public-regret-decision</a></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.29&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.29"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41733_30"></a><div class="message" id="message_41733_30"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">13 Oct 2017 15:28</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: CHYRON (DSMITHHFX) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 13 Oct 2017 15:31"></span></span> <span class="message_count">30 of 30</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.30">41733.30</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41733.21#a41733_29" target="_self">41733.29</a></div> <div class="message_body"> We can only hope. </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41733.30&return_msg=41733.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41733.30"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> </div> </body>