Gun Laws - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.0&return_msg=41226.21"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.11">11–20</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21">21–30</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.31">31–40</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.171">171–177</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41226.21">Gun Laws</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41226_21_177_10"> <a name="a41226_21"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_21"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 21:55</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Mizzy <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 07:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">21 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21">41226.21</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.18">41226.18</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Prescient observations. You sound a lot like my English cousin who lives in Ireland regarding guns.<br /><br /> I should think you a bit odd if you were extremely comfortable around guns. I feel a bit odd about them myself, actually. Respect I guess for what they can do, the consequences of misuse, deliberate or accidental.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.21&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.21"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_22"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_22"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 22:04</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Mizzy <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 07:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">22 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.22">41226.22</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.19">41226.19</a></div> <div class="message_body"> A lot of guys like to shoot at targets, clay pigeons; some of them like to hunt. Some are collectors, some actually do buy guns either because they think their wife doesn't love them or their cock is too small (thanks, Sigmund).<br /><br /> Some people have guns because they have to carry a lot of money and fear being robbed. Most jewelers here have guns to protect their stores. Some folks have been attacked in the past and bought the gun for protection in the future. I know personally of a lady who was accosted by two strange men in a public park who asked her to go off with them in the woods in a menacing manner, whereupon she pulled out her pistol and asked them which way they wanted her to go. They fled.<br /><br /> She didn't kill either one of them, didn't have to.<br /> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">the only argument I can come up with is "because at some point The owner may feel the need to kill someone else" which makes me deeply uncomfortable handing that person a weapon.</div> Natural argument from one who was likely conditioned to think that way. We have been conversely conditioned that owning a gun is our right as an American citizen as long as we follow the relevant laws and are not criminals. Do you think I actually feel the need to kill someone sometime in the future?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.22&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.22"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_23"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_23"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 3 Oct 2014 23:27</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 02:14"></span></span> <span class="message_count">23 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.23">41226.23</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.20">41226.20</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'll struggle to reply to all your points, but out of interest where would the US be on that chart? <br /> <br /> I think the deaths to ownership ratio isn't really so descriptive. It is most definitely down to cultural reasons. <br /> <br /> I really believe that citizens of the US generally feel more threatened in every day situations so are more likely to use the guns they happen to possess, probably even more so around people of a non-white ethnic background. <br /> <br /> Whilst I realise this would be totally impossible due to the vast amount of guns in circulation, do you believe if gun ownership levels (and available guns) in the US were the same as in the UK there would be substantially less innocent people killed each year? <br /> <br /> To me it really is simple, the more access that there is to guns the more innocent people that die. The chart you posted may show there isn't a huge trend but ignore the rest of the world. The US is completely culturally different with regards to guns, if you removed all the guns, less people would die. Is this not a good thing? <br /> <br /> Do you believe innocent deaths, school shootings etc are a necessary evil if you want to exercise your right to bear arms? </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.23&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.23"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_24"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_24"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 03:06</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 08:04"></span></span> <span class="message_count">24 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.24">41226.24</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21#a41226_23" target="_self">41226.23</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">I'll struggle to reply to all your points, but out of interest where would the US be on that chart?</div> <p>Right? How the article writer excluded that baffles the hell out of me. I mean, he could have used colours for clarity. <span class="emoticon e_confused" title=":-S"><span class="e__">:-S</span></span><br /><br /><strong>Quote:</strong> </p> <div class="quote">Whilst I realise this would be totally impossible due to the vast amount of guns in circulation, do you believe if gun ownership levels (and available guns) in the US were the same as in the UK there would be substantially less innocent people killed each year?</div> <p>I honestly don't know. I was under the impression that private citizens couldn't have guns there. I would wonder what the innocent killing rate is for people cleaning their guns and the dolt left it loaded and it kills someone or himself. There are hunting accidents of course, drive-by shootings where "background" people are killed, but of course that is done with what I would consider to be criminal possession. I suppose easily accidental deaths from mishandling, children or curious folks would certainly go down, but I'd suspect more killings are intentional with intentional, also criminal targets. Innocents get caught in the crossfire in some police shootings as well, but I don't know how common it is - likely not very.<br /><br /> I definitely see guns as a deterrent to crime in some areas. I really don't think a criminal is going to go into a neighborhood where it is known a percentage of homeowners have (or are suspected to have) a gun or guns for personal protection.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">The US is completely culturally different with regards to guns, if you removed all the guns, less people would die. Is this not a good thing?</div> <p>This is often what the "gun control" (control, meaning removal) zealots would have folks believe, but the facts as cited in the article and from other sources do not bear this out. The criminal element will still have and continue to get guns, possibly even from the police who would have rounded them up en masse during "buyback programs". They don't all get destroyed due to corruption or greed. I actually don't so much mind criminals killing each other rather than innocent people. When it spills over into bystanders it is definitely a problem.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Do you believe innocent deaths, school shootings etc are a necessary evil if you want to exercise your right to bear arms?</div> <p>Necessary evil? I think that is a bit of a straw man.<br /><br /> Interesting <a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html">timeline</a>. Note the number that did not occur in the U.S.<br /><br /> This is for shootings only, I have not looked at school and other innocent deaths via other means. I find it interesting to note that in several cases the shooters were reported to have been ostracised and/or teased. Not an excuse for it at all, just a fact mentioned in several cases. Speaking of which, several students her in the U.S. have commited suicide because of FaceBook tauntings.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">even more so around people of a non-white ethnic background.</div> <p>I see the media as tending toward sensationalising this because it sells. Interestingly, IIRC, most of our school shooters are almost exclusively white boys. Mass murderers tend to be white. White people be fucked up.<br /><br /> I looked up interesting statistics in the U.K.:<br /><br /> ~ 4/10 youth killings involve knives.<br /> ~ 6 people a week are stabbed in Britain<br /> ~ There are 60 non fatal knife crimes daily, 22,000 in a year (2012)<br /> ~ In killings, 39.5% involved knives<br /><br /> This <a href="http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html">link</a> supports my assertion that people kill via other means.<br /><br /> Take away guns, people kill with sharp instruments. Unfortunately, more fodder for the "people kill people" argument.<br /><br /> **Spelling<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 4 Oct 2014 13:43 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.24&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.24"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_25"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_25"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: JonCooper<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 05:00</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 13:33"></span></span> <span class="message_count">25 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.25">41226.25</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21#a41226_24" target="_self">41226.24</a></div> <div class="message_body"> FYI~ private citizens can have guns here, it's not easy and is heavily regulated, but certainly not impossible, I'd think the easiest to own would be a shotgun, I certainly know quite a few who have them, but I live in quite a rural area - it's really handguns that are hardest to own.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.25&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.25"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_26"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_26"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 13:33</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: JonCooper <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 17:43"></span></span> <span class="message_count">26 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.26">41226.26</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21#a41226_25" target="_self">41226.25</a></div> <div class="message_body"> So is it Ireland that cannot have them?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.26&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.26"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_27"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_27"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 13:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Oct 2014 13:45"></span></span> <span class="message_count">27 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.27">41226.27</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21#a41226_26" target="_self">41226.26</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I'll continue this if folks want to, but I am not going to change anybody's mind to my way nor am to be swayed the other way.<br /><br /> I'd rather talk about beer. <span class="emoticon e_wink" title=";-)"><span class="e__">;-)</span></span> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.27&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.27"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_28"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_28"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 15:16</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 5 Oct 2014 03:08"></span></span> <span class="message_count">28 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.28">41226.28</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21#a41226_24" target="_self">41226.24</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote"><span style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">Take away guns, people kill with sharp instruments. Unfortunately, more fodder for the "people kill people" argument.</span></div> <br /> That people will always kill people is not in question. <em>Given</em> that we know people will always kill people, why make it easier by giving them guns?<br /><br /> There are stats <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate">here</a> for intentional murders per country (note they're adjusted for population, they're per 100k). The USA is far from the highest but has nearly 5x the murder rate of the UK. That's not all down to gun ownership of course (though 66% of single-victim murders and 79% of multiple victim murders in the US are with firearms (67% overall)) but to say "people will kill people regardless" like it's something we can't do anything about is ridiculous.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.28&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.28"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_29"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_29"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 16:07</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 5 Oct 2014 03:08"></span></span> <span class="message_count">29 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.29">41226.29</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.21#a41226_24" target="_self">41226.24</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I made a long reply to this but Teh crashed <span class="emoticon e_csad" title=":C"><span class="e__">:C</span></span><br /><br /> I might retype it later.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.29&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.29"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_30"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_30"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Ken (SHIELDSIT)<span class="message_time"> 4 Oct 2014 16:54</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ALL<span class="message_count">30 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.30">41226.30</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Don't get me started, or I'll come over there and show you why we have guns! <span class="emoticon e_grin" title=":-D"><span class="e__">:-D</span></span> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.30&return_msg=41226.21" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.30"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41226.31" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>