Gun Laws - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.0&return_msg=41226.161"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.1">1–10</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.141">141–150</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.151">151–160</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161">161–170</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.171">171–177</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=41226.161">Gun Laws</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="41226_161_177_10"> <a name="a41226_161"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_161"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time">31 Jan 2016 16:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 31 Jan 2016 19:34"></span></span> <span class="message_count">161 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161">41226.161</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.158">41226.158</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><b>quote:</b> <a href="messages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.158">fixrman</a></div> <div class="quote">According to [U.S.] Government (!) statistics, of the 30,000 gun deaths a year, 2/3 are suicides.<br /><br /> Some people apparently just need killin'. <span class="emoticon e_rabbit" title=":-B"><span class="e__"><span class="emoticon e_rabbit" title=":-B"><span class="e__">:-B</span></span></span></span></div> <p>My guess is that a substantial number of the rest are police shootings.<br /><br /> In a related note, I saw that as of 2015, the police have seized more money from civilians, without a trial or being accused of a crime, than money stolen by "criminals". Literally, they stop cars going down the road and ask if they are carrying large amounts of cash - then just take it.<br /><br /> The money is split up among police agencies to cover "costs".<br /><br /> In case anyone wonders, it is nearly impossible to recover this money.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.161&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.161"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_162"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_162"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time">31 Jan 2016 19:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 1 Feb 2016 18:43"></span></span> <span class="message_count">162 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.162">41226.162</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_161" target="_self">41226.161</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">In a related note, I saw that as of 2015, the police have seized more money from civilians, without a trial or being accused of a crime, than money stolen by "criminals". Literally, they stop cars going down the road and ask if they are carrying large amounts of cash - then just take it.</div> <p>Not that I don't believe you - because I do believe that police are only just the other side of the line of being criminal (takes a thief to catch a thief) - but where did you "saw that"?<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">The money is split up among police agencies to cover "costs".</div> <p>Umm, that one I do NOT believe. If you said that police <em>officers</em> split it up to cover costs - namely, their personal mortgages and vehicle expenses - that, I would believe. Also, if it was reported in the news, those same officers are likely in jail now for committing a crime.<br /><br /> And you lot wonder why USians would want guns? If we give up our guns, who protects us from those who are supposed to protect us? Hmmm?<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">In case anyone wonders, it is nearly impossible to recover this money.</div> <p>Well, now that your investigative reporting has revealed it, at least it can be stopped and the thieves tried. Either that, or we are going to slide lower on the Corruption Scale (U.S. is ranked 16th worldwide).<br /><br /> Do post your source.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.162&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.162"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_163"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_163"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">31 Jan 2016 20:08</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 1 Feb 2016 12:01"></span></span> <span class="message_count">163 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.163">41226.163</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_162" target="_self">41226.162</a></div> <div class="message_body"> There have been numerous reports about it. It's called civil forfeiture. Here's a couple to start with<br /><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/10/11/asset-seizures-fuel-police-spending/">http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/10/11/asset-seizures-fuel-police-spending/</a><br /> <a href="http://www.vice.com/read/the-police-can-take-your-cash-without-charging-you-with-a-crime">http://www.vice.com/read/the-police-can-take-your-cash-without-charging-you-with-a-crime</a><div class="edit_text">EDITED: 31 Jan 2016 20:11 by MILKO</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.163&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.163"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_164"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_164"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 1 Feb 2016 12:10</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: milko <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 1 Feb 2016 13:18"></span></span> <span class="message_count">164 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.164">41226.164</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_163" target="_self">41226.163</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Very interesting and also predictable - baldly relating a story. Yes, forfeitures can happen, and certainly they do, but people are not without recourse. Trust me, if someone is [stupidly] carrying excessive amounts of cash in their vehicle or on their person, there could be an illegal reason why. People carrying large amounts of cash legally will do something about it. People carrying large amounts of cash illegally likely will not, and they probably will be charged with something as soon as the cops find out what illegal act(s) were committed.<br /><br /> Also very interesting is the second link where the article describes police running amok in situations, overreacting or performing illegal acts in the name of police work.<br /><br /> I suspect that if Americans gave up all their guns, police would return to their "To Protect and to Serve" role... <span class="emoticon e_fail" title="(fail)"><span class="e__">(fail)</span></span><br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 1 Feb 2016 12:14 by FIXRMAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.164&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.164"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_165"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_165"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time"> 1 Feb 2016 18:51</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 2 Feb 2016 03:27"></span></span> <span class="message_count">165 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.165">41226.165</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_164" target="_self">41226.164</a></div> <div class="message_body"> There are a lot of people who don't trust banks, especially after the past 10 years.<br /><br /> We have all watched what happened in Greece, where a government that was spending more than it took in, and was up to its eyeballs from bailing out banks, used deposited cash as "their own money".<br /><br /> People stood in lines at ATMs - every day, so that they could pull enough cash to buy groceries.<br /><br /> No matter if we agree or not, there are many migrants in the US, and many of them cannot even open a bank account.<br /><br /> I can think of a lot of reasons to not put your money in a bank and keep at least some of it as cash, and they don't involve doing anything particularly illegal, except for maybe having some side jobs. In any event, if they are convicted of a crime, then seizing property is one thing, but taking people's possessions, without other strong proof, or just for minor crimes is not right.<br /><br /> Owning a knife or gun is not proof or even cause that I might have committed a crime. Same with carrying cash.<br /><br /> Imagine the situation where a single Mom tries to make ends meet by engaging in prostitution. We don't like to talk about it, but it happens, it is a crime, and it is all done in cash. Is it really the correct response by police departments to seize this poor woman's hard earned cash, just because she is vulnerable ?<br /><br /> <div class="edit_text">EDITED: 1 Feb 2016 19:01 by HARRYN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.165&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.165"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_166"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_166"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 2 Feb 2016 03:36</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 2 Feb 2016 15:58"></span></span> <span class="message_count">166 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.166">41226.166</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_165" target="_self">41226.165</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Is it really the correct response by police departments to seize this poor woman's hard earned cash, just because she is vulnerable ?</div> <p>I think you answered your own question there with one word: Crime.<br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Mom tries to make ends meet by engaging in prostitution. We don't like to talk about it, but it happens,<strong> <span style="color:#800000;">it is a crime</span></strong>, and it is all done in cash.</div> <p><br /><br /> Is it fair for police departments to seize cash from a drug dealer just because he was desperate and turned to drug sales instead of a regular job? Perhaps the police should just bring the guy in, deliver the cash to his wife/kids and concentrate on real issues, like speeding or traffic violations.<br /><br /> Seriously?<br /><br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">No matter if we agree or not, there are many migrants in the US, and many of them cannot even open a bank account.</div> <p>Are the migrants here legally? The ones I know who come here don't want a bank account because they don't want to be traced. Tough darts.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.166&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.166"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_167"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_167"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Harry (HARRYN)<span class="message_time"> 2 Feb 2016 16:09</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 3 Feb 2016 03:10"></span></span> <span class="message_count">167 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.167">41226.167</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_166" target="_self">41226.166</a></div> <div class="message_body"> If a person is not convicted of a crime, nor accused of a crime, what basis is there for seizing their property? That is a fundamental right in the US Constitution, similar to the gun ownership aspect we both hold as important.<br /><br /> Anyone can be accused of a crime, and probably convicted of "something". In the nearly 30 years of living in CA, they average 1500 new state laws per year, so over 40K laws, on top of what we already had. What are the odds that the average person has any idea what these are ?<br /><br /> Is it really the same basis, to seize property, especially cash, for misdemeanors vs serious felonies ? Are you saying it is ok for a police officer to pull over your wife because she made a small driving error, and take your paycheck while she was on the way to deposit it in the bank? It was against the law - right ?<br /><br /> Suppose you are on your way to the shooting range with 3 of your nicest rifles, and you do a rolling stop. Is it ok for the police officer to "suspect that you might be on your way to a crime", seize your guns, keep one for the local agency, give one to the FBI, and the other to the state police? <br /><br /> After that, they can spend up to 1 year before making a "decision" on whether or not to charge you, during which time you cannot legally do much of anything. Regardless of if they decide to charge you or not, after this year period, you have to hire a lawyer to sue them to get back your rifles. This process can drag out another 1 - 2 years, and typically costs $2-5K in legal fees.<br /><br /> Are you really sure that you support this concept?<div class="edit_text">EDITED: 2 Feb 2016 16:16 by HARRYN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.167&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.167"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_168"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_168"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 3 Feb 2016 03:23</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Harry (HARRYN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 8 Mar 2017 17:39"></span></span> <span class="message_count">168 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.168">41226.168</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_167" target="_self">41226.167</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Are you saying it is ok for a police officer to pull over your wife because she made a small driving error, and take your paycheck</div> <p>A paycheck isn't cash. Mine were hardly enough to warrant suspicion, even when I was at the top of my earning level. Now, if my wife were to be pulled over after a minor driving infraction and allowed(!) a LEO to search the vehicle*, whereupon the officer discovered my trunk was full of cash, I'd have some 'splainin' to do. Especially to my wife. <span class="emoticon e_nod" title="(nod)"><span class="e__">(nod)</span></span> <br /><br /> *I have never advised anyone to ever allow a vehicle search for any reason. All of my vehicles were bought pre-owned; how do I know what the previous owner stashed under the carpets or somewhere in a hidden compartment?<br /><br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">Suppose you are on your way to the shooting range with 3 of your nicest rifles,</div> <p>The one rifle I own would probably cause suspicion, especially if I had ammunition for it. It is a sniper rifle, albeit an old one. If they saw the targets in the back, they'd know I don't miss.<br /><br /> </p> <div class="quotetext"><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quotetext"> <div class="quote">and you do a rolling stop.</div> <br /><br /> Can't afford that. I drive for an occupation.<br /><br /><br /><strong>Quote:</strong> </div> <div class="quote">In the nearly 30 years of living in CA, they average 1500 new state laws per year,</div> <p><br /><br /> I don't live in Cali, friend. I wouldn't live in California, way too liberal for my tastes. Pelosi is out there. OUT THERE. I'd suggest you move. Tomorrow, or sooner.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.168&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.168"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_169"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_169"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time"> 3 Feb 2016 08:23</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: fixrman <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Feb 2016 02:41"></span></span> <span class="message_count">169 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.169">41226.169</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_168" target="_self">41226.168</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Too liberal in what sense? </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.169&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.169"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a41226_170"></a><div class="message" id="message_41226_170"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: fixrman<span class="message_time"> 4 Feb 2016 02:45</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 4 Feb 2016 07:05"></span></span> <span class="message_count">170 of 177</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.170">41226.170</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=41226.161#a41226_169" target="_self">41226.169</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Come on, man. California.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=41226.170&return_msg=41226.161" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="41226.170"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="41226.171" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>