Windows 8.1 is out... - Teh Forum

<body> <div id="header"> <span class="left"> <span class="back"><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT"><span class="image mobile_back" title="Back"></span></a></span> <span class="image mobile_logo" title="Beehive Forum Logo"></span> </span> <ul> <li> <a class="reply_all" href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.0&return_msg=40728.9"> <span class="image mobile_reply_all"></span><span class="text">Reply to All</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="navigation" href="#"> <span class="image mobile_navigation"></span><span class="text">Show messages</span> </a> </li> <li> <a class="main" href="#"><span class="image mobile_menu" title="Menu"></span> </a> </li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu main"> <ul> <li><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Messages</a></li> <li><a href="lpm.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Inbox</a></li> <li><a href="lsearch.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Search</a></li> <li><a href="llogon.php?webtag=DEFAULT">Login</a></li> </ul> </div> <div class="menu navigation"><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.1">1–10</a><a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.11">11–20</a>…<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.41">41–43</a></div> <div id="page_content"> <h3 class="thread_title"><a href="index.php?webtag=DEFAULT&amp;msg=40728.9">Windows 8.1 is out...</a> </h3> <div id="messages" data-navigation="40728_9_43_10"> <a name="a40728_9"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_9"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 04:20</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 09:44"></span></span> <span class="message_count">9 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9">40728.9</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.7">40728.7</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Fucking adore Arch, aye.<br /><br /> Takes a bit of getting your head around to start with but once you do it's just so <em>simple</em>.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.9&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.9"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_10"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_10"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 04:52</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Dave!! <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 10:54"></span></span> <span class="message_count">10 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.10">40728.10</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.8">40728.8</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I doubt there'll be a Windows 9 (as anything other than a patched Win8 at least). MS have made it clear that they've eaten up this 'desktop is dead' bullshit and as a result the desktop is not important to them. They're trying to transform into a services company as IBM did (and to their mind mobile is somehow part of that). Long-time partners are getting the daggers out as MS becomes a competitor.<br /><br /> Even if MS <em>wanted</em> to make a good desktop OS, I don't think it'd be feasible for them economically. The tech that's currently in windows 7/8 is <em>ancient</em>* (particularly the kernel and filesystem but also the driver model, security model, linked library model etc etc.), it's been patched and patched to keep it just-about-competitive but I Think we're seeing the limits of that. They'd really have to re-engineer from scratch to compete for another generation and... I don't think it's worth the cost when the desktop isn't particularly lucrative for them any more.<br /><br /> (* A quick 'feature' comparison with my Linux setup without wanting to sound all Linux-evangelisty:<br /><ul><li> Filesystems: NTFS is just fucking old, creaky, slow and shit. Btrfs absolutely flies in comparison and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btrfs#Features">does stuff</a> that's light years beyond NTFS's capabilities.</li> <li> General performance stuff: Windows 7 takes ~35 seconds to boot on my machine. It takes a further 10-15 seconds before the desktop actually responds to interaction. Launching Firefox for the first time takes another 10 seconds. Linux boots to a fully hardware accelerated desktop in ~11 seconds. At which point it's responsive. FF then takes ~2 seconds to start for the first time. (none of this <em>matters</em> in itself, of course. I boot my PC once a day. It's just an indication).</li> <li> Linux has full virtualisation support built into the kernel. I can run my Linux desktop as a hypervisor and (assuming I have Vt-x and Vt-d) run Windows (or anything else) on top, fully virtualised (good for gaming).</li> <li> I can run software in a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docker_%28Linux_container_engine%29">Docker</a>, I can <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroot">chroot</a> and completely isolate the rest of my system. I Can run a wireless mesh network (again, built into the kernel). I can backup the entire system in about 100 (anything from a built-in Btrfs snapshot to a disk image to rsync to just a list of everything that's installed and all changed config files) different ways without noticing anything is happening and I can transfer that backup to pretty much any type of filesystem, local or remote, mounted locally with virtually no effort. I can do all this over ssh from my tablet if I want to.</li> <li> I don't have to download any fucking drivers fucking ever.</li> <li> I can update the whole system (OS and software) with a single command (or button press, if you're that way inclined) without having to reboot ever. Updates tend to take seconds rather than <em>fucking forever</em> as on Windows. And consist of feature and security updates rather than DRM. And I don't have to reboot <em>ever</em> during this process, except to use a new kernel, if I choose to.</li> <li> And now I can <em>even play games</em>, thanks to Gabe <span class="emoticon e_cheering" title="(cheer)"><span class="e__">(cheer)</span></span></li> </ul> That's obviously not an exhaustive list. Just stuff I can think of off the top of my head in my just-woke-up state. It would take MS like a decade to match half of those features.)<br /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.10&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.10"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_11"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_11"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 10:01</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 15:34"></span></span> <span class="message_count">11 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.11">40728.11</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_10" target="_self">40728.10</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"> <b>Quote:</b></div> <div class="quote"> I don't have to download any fucking drivers fucking ever.</div> <p> <br /> This is nearly true. But definitely a million times better than Windows.<br /><br /> I've got hardware (maybe just one item) that needs drivers downloading (and annoyingly recompiling on kernel upgrade (so I don't kernel upgrade often on that system)). But the great thing is, the manufacturer has made drivers which work ok but some members of the community don't like them so they've made better drivers themselves!<br /><br /> The benefit of the Linux driver system (or the proof that Windows is shit for this) showed itself a few weeks ago when I found an old Video to USB adapter in a box of stuff. It wasn't mine, no idea how it got here but I wanted to use it. Plugged it into a Windows 7 system, couldn't find any drivers automatically. Searched all over the place based on USB ids, generic equivalents etc and came to the conclusion that support stopped at XP.<br /><br /> Plugged it into a Linux system and there it was /dev/video0<br /><br /> The great thing generally is, even if the driver was made mainline many many years ago, it'll still be there. As far as I'm aware "support" (actually being able to use the hardware) doesn't generally stop. There's going to be some exceptions but I know I'm much more confident these days of plugging something into a Linux system and it working right away. If it doesn't then dmesg usually gives you enough information to figure something out.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.11&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.11"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_12"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_12"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Dave!!<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 11:11</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Drew (X3N0PH0N) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 15:34"></span></span> <span class="message_count">12 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.12">40728.12</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_10" target="_self">40728.10</a></div> <div class="message_body"> I agree with a lot of that, although I'll point out that having an SSD can improve things imeasurably. On my laptop (2.6GHz Core i5, 6GB RAM, 128GB Corsair SSD), Windows 7 (once past the BIOS screen) boots in 16 seconds to the login screen, 3 seconds to the desktop (where it's usable), and Firefox starts in 2 seconds. I agree though that Windows performance on an HDD is fairly poor.<br /><br /> The biggy for me will be seeing how MS competes in the long term here. I know they're going down the services route a lot more (pushing the MS store and whatnot), but Microsoft also have to accept that one of their biggest strengths and most profitable areas is enterprise.<br /><br /> Many of them do not like Windows 8 and have stuck with Windows 7. That's not a problem for one version, however if MS continues to push Windows in a consumer direction rather than a production direction, I reckon more and more businesses will slowly but surely take a good long look at Linux and consider it as a more suitable OS for a work environment than a Windows screen full of shite flashing tiles. That is something MS can't afford to happen.<br /><br /> In which case, I can see one of two things happening. One is Microsoft grudgingly giving in to some degree and placing a better emphasis on improving the desktop and providing more choice. The second might be Microsoft actually forking Windows, keeping the same kernel etc, but creating a separate and fully business oriented version of Windows. It'll be interesting to see, but top businesses do not want an OS which is geared towards touch and flashy consumer "apps".</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.12&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.12"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_13"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_13"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Monsoir (PILOTDAN)<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 12:02</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Dave!! <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 13:28"></span></span> <span class="message_count">13 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.13">40728.13</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_12" target="_self">40728.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> This I agree with - I've come to really like Win 8 as a desktop OS, but I'm dreading my first enterprise rollout. I've been playing with it in a VM, and I'm really struggling to see if the difficulty in locking it down is worth the reward.<br /><br /><br /><div class="edit_text">EDITED: 20 Oct 2013 12:04 by PILOTDAN</div> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.13&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.13"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_14"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_14"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: ANT_THOMAS<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 12:09</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Monsoir (PILOTDAN) <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 12:59"></span></span> <span class="message_count">14 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.14">40728.14</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_13" target="_self">40728.13</a></div> <div class="message_body"> This may sound a bit simplistic but do Microsoft not provide some sort of resource/help/guide to assist with things like this? Transitioning between their major products/revisions.<br /> <br /> Or is it left to people like you and that's the reason the job you do is valued?</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.14&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.14"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_15"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_15"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Monsoir (PILOTDAN)<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 13:05</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 17:03"></span></span> <span class="message_count">15 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.15">40728.15</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_14" target="_self">40728.14</a></div> <div class="message_body"> There are Microsoft articles but they vary greatly in quality and usefulness. Also, a lot of them address very specific issues meaning you need to know exactly what you're trying to fix to find them. Plus, I work a lot in education which requires a high level of control compared to most businesses.<br /> <br /> So, yeah mostly the second but I don't want to over play it. Its just experience over time and attacking issues as they come up - most can be sorted with a quick Google, but once we've done (collectively) 3 or 4 installs, we have a good cache of knowledge going forward and can provide a really solid install from day one. Plus, don't underestimate the comfort blanket of having a help desk number you can call when the boss is breathing down your neck!<br /> <br /> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.15&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.15"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_16"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_16"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 15:41</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Dave!! <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 20:30"></span></span> <span class="message_count">16 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.16">40728.16</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_12" target="_self">40728.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> Sure, but a SSD will improve Linux boot speeds too so then it's 16 seconds versus 5.<br /><br /> (Read a thing recently where someone made the quickest-booting linux they possibly could. Booted in 0.02 seconds <span class="emoticon e_bigtear" title=":')"><span class="e__">:')</span></span> (couldn't actually do much with it since they'd stripped pretty much everything out <span class="emoticon e_pipe" title=":Y"><span class="e__">:Y</span></span> ))<br /><br /> Enterprise is profitable for MS, aye, but selling Windows to enterprise isn't really (since they have to sell it very cheap and it's rarely updated). It's Azure, Exchange and Office where they make their enterprise money. Azure is becoming the focus of their efforts and Office/email will be a web based service.<br /><br /> I think MS are fine with Linux becoming the desktop OS for enterprise. So long as it's being virtualised on Azure.<br /><br /></div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.16&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.16"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_17"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_17"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: Drew (X3N0PH0N)<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 15:41</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: ANT_THOMAS <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 17:03"></span></span> <span class="message_count">17 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.17">40728.17</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_11" target="_self">40728.11</a></div> <div class="message_body"> W3rd.<br /><br /> I've not encountered anything that needs drivers for <em>years</em>. But then I don't use anything at all exotic so that's not surprising.</div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.17&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.17"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div><a name="a40728_18"></a><div class="message" id="message_40728_18"> <div class="message_header"> <div class="message_from"> From: milko<span class="message_time">20 Oct 2013 20:14</span> <div class="clearer"></div> </div><div class="message_to">To: Dave!! <span><span class="image post_read" title="Read: 20 Oct 2013 20:30"></span></span> <span class="message_count">18 of 43</span><div class="clearer"></div> </div> </div> <div class="message_links"> <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.18">40728.18</a> In reply to <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=DEFAULT&msg=40728.9#a40728_12" target="_self">40728.12</a></div> <div class="message_body"> <div class="quotetext"> <b>Quote:</b></div> <div class="quote"> <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);">I'll point out that having an SSD can improve things imeasurably. On my laptop (2.6GHz Core i5, 6GB RAM, 128GB Corsair SSD), Windows 7 (once past the BIOS screen) boots in 16 seconds to the login screen, 3 seconds to the desktop (where it's usable), and Firefox starts in 2 seconds.</span></div> <p> You can't go saying "immeasurably" and then go and measure it, man. That's just not on.</p> </div> <div class="message_footer"> <div class="message_footer_links"><a href="lpost.php?webtag=DEFAULT&reply_to=40728.18&return_msg=40728.9" class="reply"><span class="image post"></span>Reply</a></div> <div class="message_vote_form" data-msg="40728.18"> <span class="rating">0/0</span> <span class="image vote vote_down vote_down_off" title="Vote Down"></span> <span class="image vote vote_up vote_up_off" title="Vote Up"></span> </div> </div> </div></div> <div class="message_page_footer"> <ul> <li class="right_col"><form accept-charset="utf-8" method="get" action="lmessages.php" target="_self"><input type="hidden" name="webtag" id="webtag" class="bhinputtext" value="DEFAULT" dir="ltr" /><input type="hidden" name="msg" id="msg" class="bhinputtext" value="40728.19" dir="ltr" /><input type="submit" name="submit" id="keep_reading" value="Keep reading…" class="button" /></form></li> </ul> </div> </div> </body>